Bruh just because people gotta eat doesnt mean game devs dont love the art form. Actually game dev is like THE worst job a software developer could have people only do it BECAUSE they love video games, the corpos is charge dont give a fuck obiusly but indie game devs do and the actual devs in game studios do too again its not a good job to make money.
If we were talking about a world were people didnt need to money to eat then this would be a different conversation but here and now what u said is just ridiculous.
I don’t doubt that there are professional game devs who love the art. But they’re being limited either by their masters since they’re just workers who sell their labor, or in the case of indie they need to do whatever it takes to stay competitive. In either case the art is secondary. But a person who practices the art in their free time can express themselves to the best of their ability because there is no pressure from capital.
I’m not trying to discredit game developers as a profession, I was just sharing my personal preference. I still buy and play professionally made games sometimes if they intrigue me.
imma be real with u i can not comprehend how u can hold that view unless u only play “aaa” slop or very few games at all. because this just doesnt hold with reality, i dont think i even know of a single successful indie game where the love for the medium itself doesnt come across perfectly clear, there are indie games out there that were clearly just made for money but guess what those dont go anywhere because people can tell its soulless, its also true for most AA/small studios. And while someone just fucking around with a medium in their free time could maybe express themselves more (tho that is debatable too) i dont think it shows that they love games more than someone who made it their fucking life. Also being able to express themselves more because they arent limited by capital is a far cry from loving or caring about the medium more.
Also this doesnt even make sense, most of the biggest open source games out there are extremely derivative, basically copies of popular games and if anything display more of appreciation for the concept of open source software than video games.
Also also genuinely curious how does this view extend into other mediums do u regard all professional authors are hacks because they make money from what they write, what about musicians and other kinds of artists. Or is it only video games cuz u like open source stuff.
I don’t doubt that there are professional game devs who love the art
I’m guessing all of them loved the art when they first went into the industry, but as with every job, capitalism turns it into a slog, draining all of the passion and creativity, alienating the workers, eventually laying them off regardless of their performance because the corporations want to inflate their quarter earnings with stock buybacks. However, the passion that game devs, especially professional, have for the craft is insane. They unjustly put up with so much abuse and yet many stay to make more games. I do agree the devs that develop open source clones of popular games tend to have more passion for open source philosophy than the craft of video games themselves. If open source games received more financial backing, however, we would probably see more passion and quality in both areas.
I do find joy in small games made by indie solo devs exploring interesting areas as a hobby. King’s Crook is one of those games, built in C with no third-party libraries and avoids floating-point numbers, using only integers for triangle rasterization.
Exactly my thoughts. I do admire their strength when working for their masters, because I couldn’t ever imagine being in that position! Imagine what they could do if they lost their chains.
If open source games received more financial backing, however, we would probably see more passion and quality in both areas.
Sure, if the financial backing comes in the form of a donations without any strings attached. Sponsorships can be a deal with the devil, I know from first hand experience.
King’s Crook looks like a very interesting project! I’m also writing my own 3D software renderer in a project of mine, also no libraries (the renderer at least) and written in C99/ASM and single threaded, so I’m curious how they’re avoiding floating points. Too bad they don’t provide source code.
Sure, if the financial backing comes in the form of a donations without any strings attached. Sponsorships can be a deal with the devil, I know from first hand experience
I was meaning donations, or funding from a socialist state. I guess I forgot financial backing could mean manipulative sponsorships, which obviously would be risk and could damage the project.
I’m also writing my own 3D software renderer in a project of mine, also no libraries (the renderer at least) and written in C99/ASM and single threaded
That’s pretty cool! If you have your source code public and care to share, I would like to bookmark it.
I’m curious how they’re avoiding floating points. Too bad they don’t provide source code.
It’s still not entirely done (missing Cubemaps) and it’s only a part of a larger project. I’ve been working on this project off and on for the past 4-ish years.
spoiler
I’m heavily using SIMD to rasterize triangles and all the buffers (minus the frame buffer) are swizzled in a Z pattern for better cache hits.
Shadow mapping is rather noisy in some cases. It also supports normal maps and specular reflections.
(Excuse the text having a fully transparent background)
Even during the PS2 era, games like Ratchet and Clank: Up Your Arsenal had 9 month development cycles, with developers working 60+ hours a week. Many games are built with developers essentially sleeping in the office, ordering junk food, gaining weight, neglecting their families, sleeping 4 hours a day for months (nearly killing themselves), etc., because their passion is heavily exploited. While I miss the era of PS2 when many genres were explored and experimented with and games were more of an art form instead of some generic slop to sell microtranscations, season passes, etc., I passionately want game development to do away with abusive, crunch culture.
Adding to the discussion of multiple commenters’ desire for libre game development expressed here, it would be nice if China were to invest in its gaming industry, supporting open source games that can outcompete games made with blood in Amerikkka and the West (and the exploited Global South slave developers especially). To add to my previous comment here, I think China could really take advantage with developing open source games under open source architecture and operating systems which they have been developing. I believe it would be a massive soft power win. If they could make more professionally maintained alternatives to popular games like Minecraft, for example, and I think a lot of people would jump ship as they are fed up with Microsoft’s and other corporations’/studios’ bullshit, though the US pigs would probably ban the games because of tErRoRiSm. It already looks like China’s games, film, and animation production are starting to outcompete the West, though it would be nice to see them create and optimize their games like Black Myth Wukong under their sovereign open source tech and let their gaming industry skyrocket like their AI tech industry has due to open source tech and open collaboration across their provinces.
Bruh just because people gotta eat doesnt mean game devs dont love the art form. Actually game dev is like THE worst job a software developer could have people only do it BECAUSE they love video games, the corpos is charge dont give a fuck obiusly but indie game devs do and the actual devs in game studios do too again its not a good job to make money.
If we were talking about a world were people didnt need to money to eat then this would be a different conversation but here and now what u said is just ridiculous.
I don’t doubt that there are professional game devs who love the art. But they’re being limited either by their masters since they’re just workers who sell their labor, or in the case of indie they need to do whatever it takes to stay competitive. In either case the art is secondary. But a person who practices the art in their free time can express themselves to the best of their ability because there is no pressure from capital.
I’m not trying to discredit game developers as a profession, I was just sharing my personal preference. I still buy and play professionally made games sometimes if they intrigue me.
imma be real with u i can not comprehend how u can hold that view unless u only play “aaa” slop or very few games at all. because this just doesnt hold with reality, i dont think i even know of a single successful indie game where the love for the medium itself doesnt come across perfectly clear, there are indie games out there that were clearly just made for money but guess what those dont go anywhere because people can tell its soulless, its also true for most AA/small studios. And while someone just fucking around with a medium in their free time could maybe express themselves more (tho that is debatable too) i dont think it shows that they love games more than someone who made it their fucking life. Also being able to express themselves more because they arent limited by capital is a far cry from loving or caring about the medium more.
Also this doesnt even make sense, most of the biggest open source games out there are extremely derivative, basically copies of popular games and if anything display more of appreciation for the concept of open source software than video games.
Also also genuinely curious how does this view extend into other mediums do u regard all professional authors are hacks because they make money from what they write, what about musicians and other kinds of artists. Or is it only video games cuz u like open source stuff.
I’m guessing all of them loved the art when they first went into the industry, but as with every job, capitalism turns it into a slog, draining all of the passion and creativity, alienating the workers, eventually laying them off regardless of their performance because the corporations want to inflate their quarter earnings with stock buybacks. However, the passion that game devs, especially professional, have for the craft is insane. They unjustly put up with so much abuse and yet many stay to make more games. I do agree the devs that develop open source clones of popular games tend to have more passion for open source philosophy than the craft of video games themselves. If open source games received more financial backing, however, we would probably see more passion and quality in both areas.
I do find joy in small games made by indie solo devs exploring interesting areas as a hobby. King’s Crook is one of those games, built in C with no third-party libraries and avoids floating-point numbers, using only integers for triangle rasterization.
Exactly my thoughts. I do admire their strength when working for their masters, because I couldn’t ever imagine being in that position! Imagine what they could do if they lost their chains.
Sure, if the financial backing comes in the form of a donations without any strings attached. Sponsorships can be a deal with the devil, I know from first hand experience.
King’s Crook looks like a very interesting project! I’m also writing my own 3D software renderer in a project of mine, also no libraries (the renderer at least) and written in C99/ASM and single threaded, so I’m curious how they’re avoiding floating points. Too bad they don’t provide source code.
I was meaning donations, or funding from a socialist state. I guess I forgot financial backing could mean manipulative sponsorships, which obviously would be risk and could damage the project.
That’s pretty cool! If you have your source code public and care to share, I would like to bookmark it.
They mentioned they would consider open sourcing the project when it is finished. https://redlib.zaggy.nl/r/GraphicsProgramming/comments/vbpk3j/comment/icauijl/?context=3
They do have some parts and related projects open sourced, including a subset of the integer-only software renderer used in the game.
It’s still not entirely done (missing Cubemaps) and it’s only a part of a larger project. I’ve been working on this project off and on for the past 4-ish years.
spoiler
I’m heavily using SIMD to rasterize triangles and all the buffers (minus the frame buffer) are swizzled in a Z pattern for better cache hits. Shadow mapping is rather noisy in some cases. It also supports normal maps and specular reflections.
(Excuse the text having a fully transparent background)
Even during the PS2 era, games like Ratchet and Clank: Up Your Arsenal had 9 month development cycles, with developers working 60+ hours a week. Many games are built with developers essentially sleeping in the office, ordering junk food, gaining weight, neglecting their families, sleeping 4 hours a day for months (nearly killing themselves), etc., because their passion is heavily exploited. While I miss the era of PS2 when many genres were explored and experimented with and games were more of an art form instead of some generic slop to sell microtranscations, season passes, etc., I passionately want game development to do away with abusive, crunch culture.
Adding to the discussion of multiple commenters’ desire for libre game development expressed here, it would be nice if China were to invest in its gaming industry, supporting open source games that can outcompete games made with blood in Amerikkka and the West (and the exploited Global South slave developers especially). To add to my previous comment here, I think China could really take advantage with developing open source games under open source architecture and operating systems which they have been developing. I believe it would be a massive soft power win. If they could make more professionally maintained alternatives to popular games like Minecraft, for example, and I think a lot of people would jump ship as they are fed up with Microsoft’s and other corporations’/studios’ bullshit, though the US pigs would probably ban the games because of tErRoRiSm. It already looks like China’s games, film, and animation production are starting to outcompete the West, though it would be nice to see them create and optimize their games like Black Myth Wukong under their sovereign open source tech and let their gaming industry skyrocket like their AI tech industry has due to open source tech and open collaboration across their provinces.