Of course they’re shamed as long as people who demand gender role adherence exist. Even if these conservatives were a small minority it would still technically be true that incompletely traditional men would be shamed. Shamed by them.
It is still true that any man that tries to meet their demands is more likely to commit suicide than s man eho rejects their demands and ignores them.
I’m sure you’re not wrong in arguing there’s no non-traditional gender role men can fulfill that is clearly defined and understood like the traditional one is. But that’s part of the rejection. You reject the role, you keep living, if necessary you leave the people who make your life insufferable. Or you just stay, while shutting them out or reducing contact. Often that means not being welcoming to cruel family members, and often it means not listening to your mother and father most of the time.
You’re talking like a young feminist, one who has had a bank account since she was a teenager and has never actually lived in a world where she isn’t allowed to do anything her brother is. Feminists have or had a reason for rejecting traditional gender norms, but now treat rejection of traditional gender roles as “it’s what we do.” Foregone conclusion.
Men don’t have a reason to reject traditional gender norms and in fact have reasons not to. Chiefly: Survival. Men are the way they are because they have to be. Men are treated VERY poorly if they show any emotions. Anger is the only one he is sometimes allowed because just what the non-consentual fuck are you going to DO about it? That’s what I thought. It is sometimes possible to make people afraid of you in useful ways, to some young men it is the only source of genuine power they have. Any displays of vulnerability are an immediate invite to attack. People love kicking a man when he’s down. You can probably count any overt displays of joy or contentedness; people love ruining a man’s day. So you learn to swallow it all. If you can still walk, you’re fine. According to them, according to you, according to all. That’s the end of it.
if necessary you leave the people who make your life insufferable.
Great plan there! Abandon every survival tactic you’ve ever known and if any of the few actual allies in your life bitch about it abandon them too. Wander out into the world disarmed and entirely alone for…some fucking reason you’ve yet to elaborate upon.
“Traditional men commit suicide, weren’t you listening?” Causation or correlation? Does the act of being a manly man make one suicidal, or is it the growing expectation from society to continue to be more and more productive while pay stagnates, costs skyrocket, social contracts are broken and support structures are torn down all systematically and seemingly out of pure spite. So he either burns the village to feel its warmth or just pops his own cork.
======
I’ll point out one other thing: when a gay man comes out of the closet, when an atheist speaks up, when a woman goes to work, when an OK Go fan takes his headphones off, the thing they all have in common is “This is who I truly am, and that’s what I’m going to be now.” That’s not what’s happening among men. The energy you’re bringing here is “have you tried…not being trans?”
Men don’t have a reason to reject traditional gender norms and in fact have reasons not to.
Some men who don’t reject gender roles kill themselves.
If they had rejected the criticism as invalid and distanced themselves from those people, it seems the data suggests they’d live longer. In my experience, it works.
if necessary you leave the people who make your life insufferable.
Great plan there! Abandon every survival tactic you’ve ever known and if any of the few actual allies in your life bitch about it abandon them too. Wander out into the world disarmed and entirely alone…
They’re not all your allies, and who you keep contact with and how you do it is up to you. You sound like you deeply fear the world, and instead choose familiar hostility.
The energy you’re bringing here is “have you tried…not being trans?”
How the fuck am I bringing that energy? I thought it was pretty clear I was talking about shutting out traditional family if necessary to avoid harassment. I wasn’t specifically thinking about trans people, but they fit under the broader umbrella of misfits living in tradition-town needing a way out that isn’t so final.
I don’t know if you want to try transitioning or not, I didn’t really get a picture of what you’re about. But no, I personally see no reason to tell people they can’t.
Look, there are good and bad people out there. But the average experience is less bad than having to endure prolonged adult contact with cruel family. People distance themselves from cruel people for good reason. People do move away when necessary, even if there are risks. For some people life didn’t really start before they kinda got away from their past like that.
But I just mentioned that as an option to not have to endure it. Often it’s enough to just distance yourself socially from the people who are a problem.
Some men who don’t reject gender roles kill themselves.
I pre-emptively addressed this.
“Traditional men commit suicide, weren’t you listening?” Causation or correlation?
I don’t get a sense that you have an idea in your head, you’re just disagreeing with me for it’s own sake. So my five minutes is up, I’m not paying for the full half hour.
You know that CD collection you posted, where the guy in the bottom right is hanging off the side holding onto a rope?
Do that, but hold on with your neck.
Calling me a chatbot is fucked, fuck off. I hate the future. Maybe you’re the fucking bot.
I mean yeah, I saw the Hank Green video from a couple days ago or something where he was on bluesky and ended up realizing he was talking to a disagree bot, and that’s got this air of awful dead internet dystopia to it. But to be accused of being one, myself? Fuck you.
This is a case where I’m going to do brain surgery with a backhoe. Disagree bots are now a thing that exist on the internet. So if I find myself arguing with someone who doesn’t seem to have an actual idea they’re arguing for they’re just disagreeing with me, I’m going to dismiss them as a worthless troll, automated or not.
Also, I knew what I was arguing for, but time passed, I woke up in the middle of the night to take a leak, and I saw you’d called me a bot so all that stuff about “Don’t kill yourself! If your family and everyone around you is a cunt, then ignore then, maybe leave them!” went in the trash. Mostly because being called a bit when I feel I’m so obviously not a bot is jarring, and I feel like my ideal of the internet is crumbling into an unrecoverable mess.
Of course they’re shamed as long as people who demand gender role adherence exist. Even if these conservatives were a small minority it would still technically be true that incompletely traditional men would be shamed. Shamed by them.
It is still true that any man that tries to meet their demands is more likely to commit suicide than s man eho rejects their demands and ignores them.
I’m sure you’re not wrong in arguing there’s no non-traditional gender role men can fulfill that is clearly defined and understood like the traditional one is. But that’s part of the rejection. You reject the role, you keep living, if necessary you leave the people who make your life insufferable. Or you just stay, while shutting them out or reducing contact. Often that means not being welcoming to cruel family members, and often it means not listening to your mother and father most of the time.
Why! 👏 Are! 👏 We! 👏 Rejecting! 👏 Norms! 👏 In! 👏 The! 👏 First! 👏 Place?!
You’re talking like a young feminist, one who has had a bank account since she was a teenager and has never actually lived in a world where she isn’t allowed to do anything her brother is. Feminists have or had a reason for rejecting traditional gender norms, but now treat rejection of traditional gender roles as “it’s what we do.” Foregone conclusion.
Men don’t have a reason to reject traditional gender norms and in fact have reasons not to. Chiefly: Survival. Men are the way they are because they have to be. Men are treated VERY poorly if they show any emotions. Anger is the only one he is sometimes allowed because just what the non-consentual fuck are you going to DO about it? That’s what I thought. It is sometimes possible to make people afraid of you in useful ways, to some young men it is the only source of genuine power they have. Any displays of vulnerability are an immediate invite to attack. People love kicking a man when he’s down. You can probably count any overt displays of joy or contentedness; people love ruining a man’s day. So you learn to swallow it all. If you can still walk, you’re fine. According to them, according to you, according to all. That’s the end of it.
Great plan there! Abandon every survival tactic you’ve ever known and if any of the few actual allies in your life bitch about it abandon them too. Wander out into the world disarmed and entirely alone for…some fucking reason you’ve yet to elaborate upon.
“Traditional men commit suicide, weren’t you listening?” Causation or correlation? Does the act of being a manly man make one suicidal, or is it the growing expectation from society to continue to be more and more productive while pay stagnates, costs skyrocket, social contracts are broken and support structures are torn down all systematically and seemingly out of pure spite. So he either burns the village to feel its warmth or just pops his own cork.
======
I’ll point out one other thing: when a gay man comes out of the closet, when an atheist speaks up, when a woman goes to work, when an OK Go fan takes his headphones off, the thing they all have in common is “This is who I truly am, and that’s what I’m going to be now.” That’s not what’s happening among men. The energy you’re bringing here is “have you tried…not being trans?”
Nobody gets respect when clapping for emphasis.
Some men who don’t reject gender roles kill themselves.
If they had rejected the criticism as invalid and distanced themselves from those people, it seems the data suggests they’d live longer. In my experience, it works.
They’re not all your allies, and who you keep contact with and how you do it is up to you. You sound like you deeply fear the world, and instead choose familiar hostility.
How the fuck am I bringing that energy? I thought it was pretty clear I was talking about shutting out traditional family if necessary to avoid harassment. I wasn’t specifically thinking about trans people, but they fit under the broader umbrella of misfits living in tradition-town needing a way out that isn’t so final.
I don’t know if you want to try transitioning or not, I didn’t really get a picture of what you’re about. But no, I personally see no reason to tell people they can’t.
Look, there are good and bad people out there. But the average experience is less bad than having to endure prolonged adult contact with cruel family. People distance themselves from cruel people for good reason. People do move away when necessary, even if there are risks. For some people life didn’t really start before they kinda got away from their past like that.
But I just mentioned that as an option to not have to endure it. Often it’s enough to just distance yourself socially from the people who are a problem.
I’m very convinced you’re a ChatGPT-based disagree bot now. You’ve got the reading comprehension skills of one.
That’s fucked.
I pre-emptively addressed this.
I don’t get a sense that you have an idea in your head, you’re just disagreeing with me for it’s own sake. So my five minutes is up, I’m not paying for the full half hour.
You know that CD collection you posted, where the guy in the bottom right is hanging off the side holding onto a rope?
Do that, but hold on with your neck.
Calling me a chatbot is fucked, fuck off. I hate the future. Maybe you’re the fucking bot.
I mean yeah, I saw the Hank Green video from a couple days ago or something where he was on bluesky and ended up realizing he was talking to a disagree bot, and that’s got this air of awful dead internet dystopia to it. But to be accused of being one, myself? Fuck you.
This is a case where I’m going to do brain surgery with a backhoe. Disagree bots are now a thing that exist on the internet. So if I find myself arguing with someone who doesn’t seem to have an actual idea they’re arguing for they’re just disagreeing with me, I’m going to dismiss them as a worthless troll, automated or not.
Also, I knew what I was arguing for, but time passed, I woke up in the middle of the night to take a leak, and I saw you’d called me a bot so all that stuff about “Don’t kill yourself! If your family and everyone around you is a cunt, then ignore then, maybe leave them!” went in the trash. Mostly because being called a bit when I feel I’m so obviously not a bot is jarring, and I feel like my ideal of the internet is crumbling into an unrecoverable mess.
And me, you still think I’m some fucking automation?