An evergreen bell hooks quote:
The first act of violence that patriarchy demands of males is not violence toward women. Instead patriarchy demands of all males that they engage in acts of psychic self-mutilation, that they kill off the emotional parts of themselves. If an individual is not successful in emotionally crippling himself, he can count on patriarchal men to enact rituals of power that will assault his self-esteem.
For any men near the beginning of their journey to adopt of a more healthy masculinity, The Will To Change by bell hooks is an excellent read
If anyone’s interested in reading through it with others, we have a book club going for this book right now! It’s a fantastic read so far and we just started!
Yeah, but …hexbear? Ferreal? 🫣
I understand the hesitancy. Hexbear’s not for everyone. If you were only going to interact with a single corner of Hexbear and ignore the rest, this book club would be a good place to do so. It’ll be low on snark and full of people doing earnest discussion.
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I’m not sure what you mean
Everyone involved in the book club is taking it seriously and we’ve had great discussions so far without any irony poisoning. You don’t need to be a commie or an anarchist to get a lot out of the experience, we just want more people who will earnestly engage with the work.
I might, in all honesty, and thank you. I’ll have to go find how thoroughly I’ve blocked that instance (TIL: my filters are not fully synced between devices), but I appreciate knowing this is out there, at the least.
?
At first, I had to question why I was seeing a question like this, then I remembered where I was. But if I start talking trash about dbzer0 like this here, my shit’s finna get pinched.
1.) Yeah, but it’s hexbear.
2.) Use gloves.
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I think that’s a counterproductive response.
The film nights are pretty good too.
Jesus, that cuts. 🥹😶
patriarchal men to enact rituals of power that will assault his self-esteem.
This isn’t exclusive to men, women do this too. Even many that say they want a “sensitive” guy don’t actually in my experience, they want a guy that can be empathetic to others (namely them) but still have no feelings of his own, just try to cry in front of one (especially for anything less than a death of someone close, or as I’ve been told before “yeah we don’t like it when guys cry for stupid reasons but if there’s something like your mom died sure. I want a sensitive guy not a pussy.”)
Call it the patriarchy all you want, but women certainly reinforce it too, IME even some that espouse hatred for it turn around and reinforce it in the same breath.
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals…
it’s stressful, spending a lifetime pretending to not be as sensitive as a de-scrotum’d testicle
Maybe I’m just slow, but I don’t get the gist of your remark. You taking a jab at men denying their sensitivity or at men being too sensitive? The two things are sometimes two sides of the same coin I guess.
I think they’re saying they have to hide sensitivity with some colorful imagery to describe being very sensitive
men denying their sensitivity
mostly this, but
men being too sensitive?
for too many men apparently any amount of sensitivity is too much
but from my experience, it’s the guys who are most obsessed with how their manliness is perceived by the rest of the world who are the most sensitive of all. and they’re also the most miserable
I read it a nut punch to thise who deny any sensitivity, as they are more sensitive than a wind vane.
Never seen neither of them cry, so 🤷🏼♂️
So who did you see crying?
🤦🏽♂️ ahem Weathervanes don’t cry, they simply stand in the direction the wind blew. Those poor bastards that claim they don’t “feel” couldn’t stand it if everyone knew.
Weather vanes do cry when they haven’t been oiled.
Same as toxic males, I hear. Always grease your good boy.
To clarify a bit, the group is a subset of young men and they arent pretending. Its a matter of how different groups express the symptoms of their disorder. Because a man does not express his depression in a typical way does not mean he is pretending not to be depressed. The article even mentions a retrospective study that looked 3000 men who killed themselves and 60% of those men went to therapy but the issue is that this group presents atypical, externalizing depressive symptoms which can lead to them not being recognized by conventional diagnostic instruments". Therapy is not a one size fits all remedy and its common that a tailored approach is required and instruments be updated.
We dont blame or diminish mentally ill people for being mentally ill. Its that simple.
So your response to an article about how men don’t talk about their feelings is “Ha Ha men are just sensitive snowflakes”?
I wonder why men don’t talk about their feelings more 🤔🤔
do you always just make up completely different meanings for the things you read? or only when it’s something about men being sensitive and trying to pretend not to be?
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he tried to change my point from “it’s stressful to try and act all invincible tough guy all the time” into some juvenile disparaging insult about all men being ‘snowflakes’
it’s a common thing for people to get offended by a comment and then try to attack some point that was never stated in the comment. so common that even saying “strawman” anymore is almost a cliche
as a man, i can tell you it is possible to re-examine those things that cause you to get upset–and when you take the time to do it, you’ll realize that 99% of the things men get butthurt about a) don’t matter in the slightest; and b) aren’t going to be changed by anyone’s huffing and puffing about it, but will more likely just get worse
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Hey, I think some nuance was lost over the imperfect medium of text. Here’s what OP is getting at—when someone ignores their emotions, they don’t just go away. Emotions are just signals from the body about what is good for it and what is bad for it. Emotions are the body telling someone what it needs. If emotions are ignored, then the body isn’t getting what it needs, so it sends stronger signals. When I don’t eat, I get hungrier (until I start starving and my body begins eating itself, anyways). When I don’t tend to an injury, it hurts more. When I’m resentful and I don’t do anything about my feelings of resentment, those feelings grow in strength and force.
Any person who has been told by society that they should disregard their emotions will have a body which is screaming its discontent at them. I’m a man and I was raised to hide and repress my feelings (although I was never really into extreme toxic masculinity). It was fucking agonizing, and I became so, so sensitive to things. It took years of therapy for me to learn that the body keeps the score and that I had to feel and express my feelings, just like I had to eat or bandage a cut.
Anyone who has suffered from emotional self-neglect will be sensitive. Western society pushes men to neglect themselves, so those men will be sensitive. That’s all OP meant. Men who accept their emotions for what they are and tend to them will be much less sensitive and will almost certainly be happier people.
Honestly, it’s the
as a de-scrotum’d testicle
part that throws me. Makes it sound like they are comparing having normal human emotions to being as overly sensitive as a bare, unprotected testicle.
Yeah, it’s not (in my opinion) the best way to get the idea across. I read that and immediately thought of how it felt when I was emotionally repressed. To me, a de-scrotumed testicle sounds about right, because even the softest and most gentle care was still rough and painful. I can see how someone could read something much less kind in that phrase, however.
I had to re-read your original comment to fully get your point, but I hear what you’re saying now.
(Or maybe I just need an excuse to dip out of this thread and try to bleach the image of a de-scrotum’d testicle from my brain)
What. You never peeled a grape before?
Most humans are sensitive. It comes from being a social creature
Oh dear, you’ve definitely misread this comment friend.
You ok, boo?
My dude, you need to re-read what OP said and rethink your comprehension of the text.
Or they take their role as provider more seriously and when they fail, they do what they see as only way out…
But sure… It is about being “sensentive” 🤡
Please reconsider this. The sensitivity that OP is talking about is like the hunger that a starving person feels. Men who haven’t ever been allowed to deal with their feelings will be more sensitive as their bodies scream at them to acknowledge years resentment, burden, anger, anxiety, and fear. A man committing suicide to get away from emotional deprivation is like a starving person committing suicide even though they could have access to food. Men don’t have to be providers for others, and it they choose to, they don’t have to suffer silently and thanklessly under a yoke as the world whips them. You can take care of someone while also getting your emotional needs met.
Yoke*
But, thank you for taking the time to text this all to a perfect stranger. 💜
Grr, stupid autocorrect! Thanks for the heads-up, imma fix that now.
Men who haven’t ever been allowed to deal with their feelings
The only people not allowing this are themselves… i am sorry these bootlickers can’t grow a backbone and act in their own self interest.
Blaming “toxic” masculinity because losers can’t think for themselves is is toxic muscularity in of itself.
Serving some rich dude’s need is not masculine, ie “I work hard to provide but I never see my kids is not a flex btw.” it is not masculine.
I don’t know how we got to the point where bootlicking became toxic masculinity. Any man with self respect treats other men telling them what to do as a threat actor lol
I was one of those men, although I was never overtly sexist or misogynistic. I had a quieter form of toxic masculinity, where I always had to have an answer to every question, always had to be dependable and available, always had to be tough and strong. My father raised me that way and spoke out whenever I stepped outside of those lines. Once I moved out on my own, I took up my dad’s place and whipped myself whenever I wasn’t good enough. It took years of failure, pain, and suffering before I really questioned what I was raised to be. From there, it took years of therapy and love from a wonderful person to get to the point where I only occasionally find some of that old programming.
Don’t get me wrong, toxic masculinity is not an excuse for bad behavior. Every person is ultimately responsible for their well-being and for how they treat others. My actions as a young adult caused some real harm, and that’s on me. “Buckling down” and working hard for some shithead boss is not, in general, very good for someone’s well-being. However, it’s a lesson that many boys are taught, and it can be very difficult to break out of childhood conditioning.
it’s a lesson that many boys are taught, and it can be very difficult to break out of childhood conditioning.
no doubt but being a another man’s or society’s bitch, there is nothing masculine about it. i am not sure who came with this wording but it does not make much sense.
it hides what is really happening… bootlicking…
with that being said, a man with kids gonna need to step up and take care of his family that’s just biology. and providing gonna make you slave for daddy but you aint got to larp’s daddy’s koolaid.
So, how long has it been since you’ve had a hug that meant something?
Uh… You have access to support, friend? 🥹
yeah people i take care of ;)
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is suicide really the right topic to unfold politics?
Got anything worthwhile to offer, or are you just in line to touch the coffin lid and say the words in the hope that you feel something?
sorry, i was just too irritated by sunzu2’s comment, and - reading their other comments now - their general attitude on male mental health.
and no, i don’t have to hold a lid or say the words to feel the pain, thanks ;)
My apologies, neighbor. I hope you find the joy in life you seek, genuinely. 🙇🏽♂️
what politics?
a particularly high risk of suicide
As is expected from the traditional gender role.
If you’re someone who frequently looks at your gender and then complains “my gender typically suffers from x malady” and it’s not something that’s being forced upon you by external factors (such needing your partner to confirm your personal medical decisions with your doctor concerning future procreation or needing your partner’s permission to file for divorce), then maybe you should consider not being a typical example of your gender.
I have suicidal ideations and intrusive thoughts because a little voice likes to pop in every so often and tell me that killing myself would be super cool. So I take medicine to quiet the voice and tattle on it to my friends and family whenever it speaks up so they can help me assess if the advice is helpful or not. Is it “manly” to tell people close to me “I’m having suicidal thoughts and I don’t know why”? Nope. But I’d rather be a weirdo than hurt my family.
Tradmen and tradwives are terrible examples of how to be a human human.
The key to happiness is not having expectations haha. (Oversimplification, of course)
It is hilarious to me that you are paraphrasing a famous stoic philosophy, which is famously associated with masculinity, as a response to the ‘as expected’ higher suicide rate of gender role conforming men.
I didn’t expect you to say that. Behold my giddiness
By that measure, we’re all supposed to be fuckin’ ecstatic over here in the US right now, then. 🥹
I mean, everything about the fetid amalgam of mud fuckery that’s festering to boil over… As a nation, the prevailing placating excuse (aka “flagrant lie”) seems to be: we simply did nazi that coming. 🤷🏼♂️
External factors that have power over you can of course ruin the “plan” so to speak lol
Ah, yes, the ol’ “Best laid plans of mice” and all that?
As a woman whose male friends have made the same choices as you I gotta say, I’ve always preferred spending an evening supporting a friend to spending it mourning him.
Being alive has been one of my most consistent activities in my life
ETA: I appreciate your input and realizing that most of my friends in my contacts are women is one of my favorite self-evident reasons to reject gender roles. Something about my maladjusted peers blaming onlookers and victims for their maladjustment makes them insufferable to me.
In other words: guys gotta fix their shit or at least quit blaming women; anything less than that shouldn’t be tolerated by anyone.
Yeah, it’s sick. No man should be expected to be able to provide for a small to large family alone, not in this capitalist society that is designed to grind you into nothing. They should be allowed to enjoy hobbies like cooking, art, and home making. They should be allowed to give and recieve affection. The normal gender roles we were taught are trash. They are not meant for everyone but only for some class of people that existed at one point in time and that even then they were unique in the amount of wealth they all shared.
That tracks, traditional gender roles are overly restrictive and force people to deny their needs.
Men, nothing wrong with being masculine if you want, but if a woman demands you “man up” for her at the expense of your emotional needs, you’re better off single.
I would have been that statistic too before I transitioned and found gender roles are fucking dumb
Gender roles are pretty dumb even for people happy living in their birth-assigned gender. But I guess you see it twice as bad2,cause you’ve experienced them from both sides now. Fixing yourself doesn’t fix the world, I guess.
I’d be interested to see what the rates of suicidal ideation are compared between men who do and don’t conform to traditional gender roles. Because there are a lot of contributing factors I can think of off the top of my head, like men who don’t conform as strictly to traditional gender norms are probably more likely to go see a therapist, so they are more likely to see a way out of their situation that doesn’t involve suicide. Also, men who more strictly conform to traditional gender norms probably are more likely to have guns in the home, and (as other studies have shown) men tend to prefer suicide by gun over pills/meds/other methods, so I’m curious if that has an impact as well.
Anecdotally I am both of those. I grew up in a deep south military family, and I used to have a sidearm that I assigned way more of my identity to than I should have and thought about using on myself more than i ever thought about using in any other way. I didn’t try therapy for the first time until my 30s, after I quit working for the airforce. Telling a man he needed therapy where I used to work was an insult no matter the context, and it was an open secret that you’d get fired if you sought any kind of mental healthcare. (not directly, but some security manager somewhere in the system would revoke your clearances and it would domino from there)
I’m still amazed I made it through that; it feels like almost every week I’m still blown away by how much different the world can be when it isn’t just a deluge of bigotry and hatred and doomsday weapons. If you can help it, don’t ever fucking make weapons. No matter how much they offer to pay you or pretend you’re a hero. It’s not worth your will to live
It does, yes
Okay good, thank you. I couldn’t find any info in the originally linked article.
There is no non-traditional gender role for a man to assume. A man who does not work and provide, protect and defend is shamed as a deadbeat. His is the only end of the old social contract no one wants to throw away.
Of course they’re shamed as long as people who demand gender role adherence exist. Even if these conservatives were a small minority it would still technically be true that incompletely traditional men would be shamed. Shamed by them.
It is still true that any man that tries to meet their demands is more likely to commit suicide than s man eho rejects their demands and ignores them.
I’m sure you’re not wrong in arguing there’s no non-traditional gender role men can fulfill that is clearly defined and understood like the traditional one is. But that’s part of the rejection. You reject the role, you keep living, if necessary you leave the people who make your life insufferable. Or you just stay, while shutting them out or reducing contact. Often that means not being welcoming to cruel family members, and often it means not listening to your mother and father most of the time.
But that’s part of the rejection.
Why! 👏 Are! 👏 We! 👏 Rejecting! 👏 Norms! 👏 In! 👏 The! 👏 First! 👏 Place?!
You’re talking like a young feminist, one who has had a bank account since she was a teenager and has never actually lived in a world where she isn’t allowed to do anything her brother is. Feminists have or had a reason for rejecting traditional gender norms, but now treat rejection of traditional gender roles as “it’s what we do.” Foregone conclusion.
Men don’t have a reason to reject traditional gender norms and in fact have reasons not to. Chiefly: Survival. Men are the way they are because they have to be. Men are treated VERY poorly if they show any emotions. Anger is the only one he is sometimes allowed because just what the non-consentual fuck are you going to DO about it? That’s what I thought. It is sometimes possible to make people afraid of you in useful ways, to some young men it is the only source of genuine power they have. Any displays of vulnerability are an immediate invite to attack. People love kicking a man when he’s down. You can probably count any overt displays of joy or contentedness; people love ruining a man’s day. So you learn to swallow it all. If you can still walk, you’re fine. According to them, according to you, according to all. That’s the end of it.
if necessary you leave the people who make your life insufferable.
Great plan there! Abandon every survival tactic you’ve ever known and if any of the few actual allies in your life bitch about it abandon them too. Wander out into the world disarmed and entirely alone for…some fucking reason you’ve yet to elaborate upon.
“Traditional men commit suicide, weren’t you listening?” Causation or correlation? Does the act of being a manly man make one suicidal, or is it the growing expectation from society to continue to be more and more productive while pay stagnates, costs skyrocket, social contracts are broken and support structures are torn down all systematically and seemingly out of pure spite. So he either burns the village to feel its warmth or just pops his own cork.
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I’ll point out one other thing: when a gay man comes out of the closet, when an atheist speaks up, when a woman goes to work, when an OK Go fan takes his headphones off, the thing they all have in common is “This is who I truly am, and that’s what I’m going to be now.” That’s not what’s happening among men. The energy you’re bringing here is “have you tried…not being trans?”
Nobody gets respect when clapping for emphasis.
Men don’t have a reason to reject traditional gender norms and in fact have reasons not to.
Some men who don’t reject gender roles kill themselves.
If they had rejected the criticism as invalid and distanced themselves from those people, it seems the data suggests they’d live longer. In my experience, it works.
if necessary you leave the people who make your life insufferable.
Great plan there! Abandon every survival tactic you’ve ever known and if any of the few actual allies in your life bitch about it abandon them too. Wander out into the world disarmed and entirely alone…
They’re not all your allies, and who you keep contact with and how you do it is up to you. You sound like you deeply fear the world, and instead choose familiar hostility.
The energy you’re bringing here is “have you tried…not being trans?”
How the fuck am I bringing that energy? I thought it was pretty clear I was talking about shutting out traditional family if necessary to avoid harassment. I wasn’t specifically thinking about trans people, but they fit under the broader umbrella of misfits living in tradition-town needing a way out that isn’t so final.
I don’t know if you want to try transitioning or not, I didn’t really get a picture of what you’re about. But no, I personally see no reason to tell people they can’t.
Look, there are good and bad people out there. But the average experience is less bad than having to endure prolonged adult contact with cruel family. People distance themselves from cruel people for good reason. People do move away when necessary, even if there are risks. For some people life didn’t really start before they kinda got away from their past like that.
But I just mentioned that as an option to not have to endure it. Often it’s enough to just distance yourself socially from the people who are a problem.
I’m very convinced you’re a ChatGPT-based disagree bot now. You’ve got the reading comprehension skills of one.
That’s fucked.
Some men who don’t reject gender roles kill themselves.
I pre-emptively addressed this.
“Traditional men commit suicide, weren’t you listening?” Causation or correlation?
I don’t get a sense that you have an idea in your head, you’re just disagreeing with me for it’s own sake. So my five minutes is up, I’m not paying for the full half hour.
You know that CD collection you posted, where the guy in the bottom right is hanging off the side holding onto a rope?
Do that, but hold on with your neck.
Calling me a chatbot is fucked, fuck off. I hate the future. Maybe you’re the fucking bot.
I mean yeah, I saw the Hank Green video from a couple days ago or something where he was on bluesky and ended up realizing he was talking to a disagree bot, and that’s got this air of awful dead internet dystopia to it. But to be accused of being one, myself? Fuck you.
Yeah and any woman who doesn’t cook, clean and pop out children is shamed as selfish. Hmm wait, that’s the definition of traditional gender roles and the topic of the article / study, interesting. Guess there’s no alternatives to that for women either. It’s not like a man can’t just be themselves and content with that.
The fuck are you talking about? A woman can go be career driven or whatever. What else is there for a man?
Being literally whatever the hell they want. The world is not black and white.
Society does not permit this and you’re being intellectually dishonest in suggesting otherwise.
There are, like, literally billions of men who don’t fit this archetype you’re describing. Many of them are beloved and idolized by society. Some are artists, musicians, dancers, writers. Lots are stoners or slackers. Some are clergy or philosophers or historians, and not always drawing steady income. And they can be surrounded by loved ones.
Go be yourself and stop caring about what some narrow slice of society expects.
And this study, that this article is about, specifically shows that believing this nonsense is correlated with suicide. That’s why it’s actually dangerous to try to convince people of this falsehood.
There are fewer than 4 billion men currently alive. And all of those liberal arts majors you just listed? Yeah they’re shamed as losers if their work doesn’t pay. Women don’t stay with the aspiring musician who refuses to get a day job so he can focus on his music but can never seem to land a gig. People idolize SUCCESSFUL artists, musicians, dancers, writers etc. We jail stoners especially if they aren’t white. What are YOU smoking?
There are fewer than 4 billion men currently alive.
Yes, and what percentage are everything that you expect a man to be? There are plenty of men who are smart but not protective, hard working but not high earning, etc.
If your whole definition of a successful man is based on whether a woman will stay with them long term, then first, I’d point out that’s a stupid definition, and second, even if we were to use that definitions there are plenty of ways that marriages fall apart. A man who doesn’t change diapers or won’t clean up after himself is at risk of getting left, no matter how much money he has. Bad communicators are also at risk. Infidelity destroys marriages. So does violence or angry outbursts. These are pretty far removed from what you’re talking about, and men who fall for believing in these rigid gender roles are exactly the type of people who find themselves receiving divorce papers. Plenty of high earning divorced boomer men out there, and there are plenty of happily married men who depend on their wives’ incomes.
Feminism since the 1970s has been advocating for financial independence for women so that they can leave someone regardless of how much they earn.
And more fundamentally, if the sole sign of manhood is being able to stay in a long relationship, then there are a lot of different ways to achieve that. Being authentic to oneself is an important way to have meaningful relationships with friends and families and spouses, and is an important foundation for a successful marriage, too.
My next door neighbor is a stay at home dad what are you on about?
Living the dream
And how long is that going to go on before his wife divorces him out of resentment?
Well, they’ve been together for at least 24 years so idk?
Lol ok
Anything else. If someone questions your manhood, just tell them they are a daddy fucking dipshit and move on.
A long-term study in the US involving around 10,000 young men has already shown that they are more likely to commit suicide over a period of 20 years if they identify strongly with traditional masculine roles. These norms are characterized by ideas that originated from the previously strongly patriarchal social framework. They prescribe the characteristics that men should have and how they should behave. These include, for example, independence, controlling their emotions and not showing their vulnerability. In science, this is summarized under the term traditional masculine ideologies.
Toxic Masculinity is very real.
The Woke is trying to prevent REAL men from exercising their right to unalive themselves!
as always the problem is capitalism and its highest form, imperialism
Men who don’t conform to traditional gender roles are at a higher risk for being called “ha gay”.
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Wrong.
The manliest thing a man can do is wrestle a bear, ride a tiger, domesticate a wolf, or eat an entire spoonful of cinnamon.
THEN I guess it’s whatever thing you said.
I think it was the old baseball player Thurmon Munson who said “I never feel more like a man than when I’m wearing a dress”.
Yeah because we get in there and GET THE JOB DONE. Women are just “yak yak yak” right guys?
Guys…?
guys…?
AW NO BILLY!?! WHYYYY BILLY WHYYYYY. WHY DIDNT YOU SAY SOMETHING THAT I COULD HEAR OVER THE CONSTANT NEED FOR US TO TALK ABLUT LITERALLY ANYTHING OTHER THAN OUR FEELINGS!?!
They spend their entire life worrying about what everyone, from their family to complete strangers, will allow or not allow them to do. Can’t imagine the stress. So glad my parents raised me to just be myself, do what I want, and tell anyone who complains to fuck off.
Just the ones inclined to suicide.
Not just the ones inclined to suicide. Men from all different personality groups and mental states in the study worried about those thing and killed themselves over those things.
I’m not suicidal! You’re suicidal!
Fuck I just typed out such a long and thoughtful response. It was the perfect balance of addressing all the misconceptions in the comments and giving my opinion on the actual issue without at all relating anything women vs man.
My finger slipped and I hit the back button on jeboa and I lost the whole comment. I’m really feeling the traditional masculine urge to express anger and engage in risky behavior.
