- cross-posted to:
- memes@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- memes@lemmy.world
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The difference is respect.
I can disagree with you but still respect that your decision is yours to make. In spite of any moral arguments, if it’s not illegal I don’t have grounds to demand that you do anything differently. I can provide suggestions, guidance and opinions on it, but I can’t force you into a decision I agree with.
But I’m also not a vegan. I see the world as much as I can from a neutral perspective. Things are not good nor bad, in and of themselves. The value statements of “good” and “bad” are a matter of perspective. If I were to win the lottery, that is, for all intents and purposes, a good thing… For me. For everyone who lost, not so much. My win, in the grand scheme of things, isn’t good nor bad, simply something that happened.
I would agree that from an empathetic viewpoint, many of the practices I’ve seen publicized about factory farming from pro-vegan groups or persons, hasn’t been good. Often it can be cruel or lacking any sympathy to the animals, which isn’t great. However, looking at things more broadly as I tend to do, any such report will be cherry picked as the worst of the worst from an unknown sample of the industry. So I take what I see from those groups and persons with a grain of salt.
Of course the industry, defending itself, will do the opposite and cherry pick examples of their most humane practices and locations. So that isn’t the full picture either. Even news media, largely owned by corpo’s who are likely invested into the meat industry, will skew their coverage to their own benefit, so even that cannot be fully trusted.
As always the truth lies somewhere in the middle, and bluntly, I can’t be bothered to dig deep enough to figure it out. My thoughts on a solution is to impose policy and procedure via laws and ordinances against factory farms for a minimum standard for their livestock, and government run enforcement that’s well funded to ensure those regulations are being followed. IMO, that’s what government is there to do. If the majority disagree that needs to be done, then such measures will not pass their respective legislative process to be passed into law. In that case, the focus should be on changing the hearts and minds of those who are opposed to the regulation and trying again when the number of people who supports the idea has increased.
You make your own choices though. Get mad, yell in the park at strangers about it, do whatever. You’re free to make those choices.
Most western cultures think that they’ve experienced moral progress over time. These aren’t mere intuitions, however, as these observations often admit of some deep analysis. For example, some argue that our modern liberal intuitions (e.g. everyone is born free, etc.) are grounded in the philosophy of Thomas Hobbes. Hobbes was responding to earlier moral philosophy and was responded to himself in turn. Kant distilled these intuitions into a rigorous metaphysics of moral philosophy, which was still used quite actively well into the 70s.
Now, philosophers don’t think that ‘views have changed, therefore there is no truth.’ Instead, they realize that good analysis of these earlier arguments reveals that they’re close to right but skate around some important moral issues that can be unpacked with analysis. There’s truth that can be found. It appears to all the relevant experts that moral thought is developing in a way that’s strongly analogous to mathematical or natural scientific thought.
These are some of the reasons that subjectivism and relativism are extremely unpopular among experts.
Although we can observe and say that although there are people who have different moral systems than us, such as psychopaths and Spartans; we can actually scientifically evaluate the merits of the competing moral systems and their objective performance in the long run and historically. Historically, evolution has shown that altruistic humans are indeed “fitter” and objectively, game theory has shown that cooperative strategies are objectively better than selfish strategies in the long run.
You don’t need examples or have to worry about cherry-picking. They’re not ours to use. You can’t humanely take a life of something that doesn’t want to die.
Consider that neither the wish to be free from suffering nor the wish to continue existing is unique to our species; these interests are shared by all sentient animals, and indeed can be seen as fundamental biological drives. And if my interest in not being harmed or killed makes it wrong to harm or kill me when harming or killing me can be avoided, then an animal’s interest in not being harmed or killed makes it likewise wrong for us to harm or kill animals when doing so can be avoided.
Why would you starve if you couldn’t afford eggs? This is a ridiculous strawman.
The vegan in this meme is a fucking clown. 🤡
“I’m vegan but I’m a hypocrite and don’t actually care if others constantly kill and consume animals for no reason. People might treat me poorly if I stand up for other species, and who cares if they die anyway?”
Looking forward to all the rare conditions everyone will suddenly have in response to my comment.
Literally every vegan I’ve ever met sadly. Either this or they don’t understand veganism
I just don’t get it. If you actually don’t need to consume animals to survive then why do it at all? People expect us to be nice to them about it??
Vegans not getting most people aren’t vegan and how to be nice is classic vegans…
Acting like we haven’t been around people before and know exactly how they feel, who still get frustrated because they’re expected to be nice to people they’ve come to realize are willing participants to animal abuse is classic nonvegans.
Your sentence is very grammatically confusing.
Not being vegan is the norm. You can’t create an ethic against them norm then call everyone else willing participated to animal abuse. You really gotta to get a different approach.
people they’ve come to realize are willing participants to animal abuse
no one is doing that
most people aren’t working at that plant ten years ago.
Apply this to anything else though. This comes up in all sorts of other social issues whenever one group has a problem and another group sees no problem.
“I just wish they’d be nicer about it” has been applied to environmentalism and civil rights issues too, and I don’t think it’s a valid response.
People making you uncomfortable doesn’t invalidate what they’re saying.
No not really. It’s mostly just vegans.
Plant murderer.
Funny because I almost used “murderer” but knew every animal abuser would set down their burger for 20 seconds to go “well actually murder is only when you kill people…” but yeah, it’s totally okay for you to use that language. 😒
… yeah, it’s totally okay for you to use that language.
I know, that’s why I used it.
Bottom row energy
Low effort energy
constantly kill and consume animals for no reason.
They taste good.
Humans taste good as well
Skill issue. If you don’t know how to cook meatless dishes that are at least as good, you’re really missing out.
That’s two reasons then 🤷
Being a prick isn’t making anyone eat less meat. Ensuring others have easy access and knowledge of lower meat diet options does. Sounds to me like the clown is doing a better job of helping animals than you are 🤷🏻♂️.
And being nice about doesn’t help either; maybe I wouldn’t be such a prick if people would stop with the bullshit excuses. I don’t really give a fuck about strangers’ feelings but I do care about the animals they’re murdering so maybe they’re the ones that should take a look at their own actions.
For the uninitiated: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO
Well consider me initiated
Yeah, getting real tired of this song and dance they have going here.
On the top: the ideal of leftists
On the bottom: Reddit rad libs
Seeing this meme play out in the comment section is really fucking funny.
Ethics be what they may, shaming every individual you interact with who doesn’t conform to your beliefs is a really shitty way to try to effect societal change.
Number one reason I don’t want to be called a vegan. Especially online ones are particularly cringe and rude. It’s ridiculous. They’re like the American Protestants of diets
It’s not a diet anymore than being against domestic violence is a fashion choice.
A diet based on plants follows from the ethical conclusion that other living beings are not things we can extract resources from and destroy for our pleasure and convenience.
You all gotta get better pr, seriously. Not eating veganism is not comparable to domestic violence. What the heck.
You know it was in my living memory that killing a man for hitting on another man was reasonable self defense.
Just because something is normalised doesn’t mean it’s not a hideous evil.
Comparing eating meat as normalized to killing someone for hitting on someone as normalized is literally insane. You just keep making worse comparisons.
Except that this post is an anti-vegan strawman. Nobody is hoping that people starve, and nobody is starving because eggs are slightly more expensive.
I belive access to healthy, ethical food is a human right. Why should I be expected to advocate for food that I believe is unethical, especially when it’s unnecessary?
Actually it’s the most effective way.
I read a great biography of William Lloyd Garrison (the American abolitionist) a couple of years ago and it made it clear how he, and other radicals, dramatically changed the course of history through their constant focus and activism on how slavery was wrong. Their radicalism shifted the middle. That’s what “extreme” views do, they make it easier for people in the middle to move towards embracing justice.
We (most of us) don’t remember all the people who said “Yeah, slavery is wrong but we have to be practical,” or “I would like to end slavery but we have to compensate owners,” or “But what will we do with all the black people?” These were real positions within the anti-slavery movement. When Garrison began his career, they were the dominant positions and he spent much of his career being vilified by gradualists who thought he was too extreme.
They wanted to end slavery “someday.” And they didn’t want those who claimed to own other humans to be too uncomfortable. We don’t remember gradualists today. We remember the men and women with the courage and ethical wisdom to look at slavery and say “This is wrong. It needs to stop.” And their “extremism” is part of why it did stop, because the moral pressure they exerted made the South conclude it was inevitable that slavery would end unless they broke free of the Union.
I think we have to be careful in drawing parallels between veganism and past social justice movements, but there is a valuable lesson for us here. We can serve animals by not being in the middle because by being extreme, we can change what the middle even is. Today it is becoming mainstream to critique things like gestation crates or foie gras. We did that. We changed the middle. (This “we,” obviously, is broad).
&
We see the same thing in climate action protests: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41893-024-01444-1.epdf
I believe researchers call it the radical fringe effect.
affect
Not gonna lie, the performatively anti-vegan rhetoric is cringe af.
Not sure why it’s so popular on lemmy of all places, but there’s been some really terrible behaviour towards vegans whenever I’ve seen the topic pop up. Just flooding the platform with hate particles for absolutely no reason.
A lot of it is just trolls and bots sowing discord and sabotaging any debate.
Because there is a subset of vegans who are vocal about their perceived moral superiority due to their diet. Sadly these are the loudest voices many people hear and they frequently aren’t nice people.
Most vegans aren’t attacking people over their dietary choices so non-vegans only tend to see the aggressive folks.
This is one of the biggest problems with literally everything. People see the loud assholes and assume everyone is like that.
So many people think that there are folks out there abusing the pittance they get from welfare because they saw a few people wasting their food stamps. When in reality most people on welfare aren’t out and about to be seen, they’re at home (if they have a home) trying to stretch their dollars.
People extrapolate and generalize far too easily.
Anti-welfare rhetoric was a deliberate propaganda campaign. That’s extensively documented, all of that was the result of Reagans deliberate actions.
In this, I assume, it is also very similar to a perpetual vegan bashings.No, it was a thing that a bunch if people experienced IRL. In my case it was decades ago in high school or in vegan punk circles (many of those have significant problens with theor sense of superiority to begin with).
You experienced a lot of punk vegans in vegan punk circles, huh? Who would’ve thunk
You really, really need to go out your way to find those loud moral superior vegans. Like, look for them, search their communities specifically.
However, there is no shortage of comment from people who apparently just can’t stop seeing angry vegans everywhere and that’s why, those commenters conclude, it’s normal and good to continue with constant anti-veran rhetoric. Because those vegans, you see, are everywhere.I usually use the “all” feed of Lemmy and have blocked a few of the vegan communities just because of how toxic many of the posts were. This is all from stumbling across them and never seeking them out. It’s really sad because seeing things like vegan recipes and food substitute ideas is something I’d love in my feed.
Nah, they used to be more common a while back. I think the community chilled out a bit as too many saw that militant vegan and wanted to not be that vegan
You really, really need to go out your way to find those loud moral superior vegans. Like, look for them, search their communities specifically.
It was A LOT more common when I was in high school in the 1990s. I have only ever seen it online or in vegan punk circles (many of whom have other issues)
If you have problem with this kind of response to an explicitly vegan bashing post, then you just have a problem with vegans, and not an aversion of their percieved vocal superiority.
And that’s a you problem.you said I really had to go out of my way to find them, but they were in this thread.
If you classify the mild response to a veganbashing comment as a preachy moral superiority one, your problem is actually with them existing, and you just trying to normalwash your problem
I have no problem with them existing. I’m just pointing out you were wrong.
That and the rampant anti-feminism the moment anything slightly pro feminist reaches all makes me question this place quite a bit sometimes.
Very true, but it also doesn’t help ridiculing and banning people from vegan communities who want to go more vegan, but aren’t there yet. There’s some serious gatekeeping going on and it unfortunately makes people give up becoming vegan in defiance.
Lemmy is pretty anti-vegan (and the world is as well), hence this meme being highly upvoted. That causes vegan communities to only want vegans in their spaces so they don’t have to deal with trolls. I know I’ve run into people multiple times who just want to ask questions in these spaces but then it just turns into a troll. I remember someone opening a space meant for vegans who aren’t assholes supposedly, and when I looked in it, it had people describing hunting in gory detail and how important hunting is to them and how they will not ever give up hunting. How is that supposed to be welcoming to vegans? It’s not, it’s just another space for carnism.
If you want to go vegan, online strangers will not stop you no matter how shitty you think they are being to you. You really going to kill animals because someone was mean to you after you already decided it was wrong to do so? It doesn’t matter how you approach the subject, people just don’t give a shit. Most people are lost causes, they will blame anything for why they won’t make the change. I’ve been nice and get told BS anyway. It’s not the way vegans communicate, but it is a convenient excuse for carnists to continue consuming animal products.
This meme isn’t anti vegan…
It reads as anti-vegan to me because it’s another variation of “if vegans were nicer, everyone would eat less meat and become vegan.” People know about factory farming but do not care, some leftists will even defend it while claiming to be “neutral” on the subject. Vegans are nice in general, that’s not why they are hated. They are hated because they expose a truth about society and people do not like what that truth says about themselves.
Also lower row vegan is a dumb caricature. Veganism is about reducing harm, a vegan would not want a person to starve to death. Which families are starving to death because of eggs? It just reads like someone who is anti-vegan made this. Exasperated vegans don’t understand how to convince your average meat-eater that animal lives have value the way a human life has value, that factory farming contributes to destroying the environment, and that eating a plant based diet can be healthy. Because the reaction they usually get is some variation of lower row meat-eater, no matter how nice they are about, or what facts they use, or any emotions they try to appeal to. You cannot work together when meat-eaters will fight tooth and nail so they do not have to give up their meat.
I recognized the point OP was going for, but by singling out veganism (and with such a tired stereotype), the tone changes.
I wonder if adding another two examples (because rule of 3), along with the vegan/meat-eater scenario (or replacing it), might help convey the intent more clearly. It would remove the spotlight from one particular group (which, as we all know, is already heavily targeted with undue hate), and would make it more obvious that the message is “we’re all in this together.”
It would take restructuring the whole comic, unfortunately, but it could work.
Veganism is about reducing harm
i think you’re conflating veganism with utilitarianism
Search lemmy for “vegan reducing harm.” Then search the broad internet for the same thing. You’ll find that this is a common ethos in veganism. I suggest going to the vegan communities (keep in mind you are not welcome in some due to you being a carnist, read the sidebar) and talk to the vegans there. Ask them about harm reduction. You might want to do the debatebro thing, but you might learn more just listening.
i’ve read singer. while many are taken in by his utilitarian argument for veganism, veganism predates its utiltarian defense, and is harm-agnostic.
Yeah I was in a vegan community cheering people on for being stronger than me. Mentioned that I like meat a lot but I’m trying to cut back. Comment deleted.
Organ meats can be fantastic and plenty of cultures eat them. Beef kidney is especially good on it’s own, but other organs add a lot of flavor. When we make thanksgiving stuffing we chop up all the turkey organs fine and fry them, then mix them in the stuffing. We don’t tell anyone in the family (don’t worry none are vegetarian or vegan) and they love it. If you eat meat you might be pleasantly surprised by organs. And uhh… sorry for posting this on vegan group. For what it’s worth I think you guys are great and morally correct.
This was removed for:
No omni/carnist apologists. This is not a place where to ask to be hand-holded into veganims. Omnis coddling/backpatting is not tolerated, nor are /r/DebateAVegan-like threads
So I’ll tell you my thoughts. You posted gore in detail, for this I would report your comment and want it removed. I don’t want to hear about animal organs and how tasty you think they are in a vegan community. You said said organs would pleasantly surprise people (vegans). I mean what did you expect? This particular community doesn’t do the whole back patting because you are cutting down (which you did not mention), other communities would ban you because you weren’t vegan, so you should always read the sidebar.
There were meat-eaters who posted in a better way:
As someone who generally tries to eat less meat, but isn’t yet vegan, what are some of your staple foods you eat on a weekly or daily basis? This isn’t about nutrition, I just want more meals to add to my rotation that don’t have animal products in them.
Notice the difference? There is a time and place.
Fair enough.
What do you expect? You want us to congratulate you for only sometimes not murdering animals? Good job! 👏
See there’s literally nothing you’re doing here except talking shit. Say I was a more weak minded person, your comment might make me think vegans are all assholes.
Those trolls are just stupid tbh. They probably expect vegans to react shocked or something. It’s definitely okay to ban those.
I think that even though some people find excuses to not become vegan, it shows they know it is the right thing to do and I think it’s possible to give them easy vegan recipes and tips to get them as close to veganism as possible and that would still be an improvement and a win for vegans.
I agree but someone has to come to a vegan for the recipes. You cannot force someone to change. I can give someone a recipe but unless they asked for it, it is ignored in my experience. You can bring vegan food to a gathering and you might get some acknowledgment that it tastes good, but it does not cause anyone to reconsider their viewpoints. You assume people are more open-minded and will actually care, I am saying those people do exist but are not the norm.
Lemmy has a loud and angry vegan community.
The reasonable folks among us are turned off by all of yall (the loud and angry folks, and those coming out of the woodwork to argue with vegan people), but it’s hard to be swayed to veganism when that’s the miasma.
Why would someone being an asshole to you prevent you from eating animals? That doesn’t make sense.
Human psychology.
Nearly every online platform is like this, about almost every subject. Like I said, some people arguing with trolls online should not affect you becoming vegan. You might think the community has poor moderation and not want to join it, but why would it affect whether you contribute to farm animals dying or not? That’s why I think it is just a convenient excuse to deflect.
You think it is inherently true that your belief is right.
Not everyone does.
The vitriol doesn’t convince the people.
That’s the point I’m making.
I think this is something we will have to agree to disagree about, then.
I don’t believe tone policing actually helps convince people of social causes. You can be nice and sweet and still get spat on. That is the reality.
You’re disagreeing with what we know about human nature, so do you but that’s also on you.
!carnivore@lemm.ee is essentially reactionary.
Really cringe shit.
Most vegans/vegetarians I know IRL are chill af. Online veganism is sometimes a whole different thing. Plenty of vegans saying if you’re not vegan you’re not a leftist, or if you’re not vegan why are you even commenting about Palestine because clearly you don’t care about genocide. I’ve only seen 2 posts like that on my year+ on lemmy, but I just ignore them. I’m sure some leftist looking for leftist infighting saw that and was like, vegans are the new MLs/stalinists/anarchists/proto-anti-natural-primitivist or whatever.
The whole vegan pet abuse thing caused a lot of bad blood over a few bad actors. But you’re always going to have a few bad actors virtue signaling.
I agree, the lemmy.world admins caused bad blood and handled it poorly when proven wrong. I still run into people parroting the admin’s side of vegan cat drama … even when it was proven wrong. I just can’t anymore lmao.
yesyes <3
being reasonable is very nice
Killing animals = reasonable.
Demanding that people not kill others because the end products are enjoyable and convenient = unreasonable.
The bottom row is absolutely a strawman. I’m not vegan, for the record, but there absolutely isn’t a biological need for meat in humans. If that were the case, lifelong veganism wouldn’t be possible. Also, no one is wishing starvation on anyone. This meme takes what could have been a good point about letting perfect be the enemy of good and just makes it vegan bashing, of the strawman variety.
I‘ve only met one vegan IRL, but it was pretty much exactly like the top, the bottom I’ve only seen online. They said to me if I more people reduce meat consumption that would be a great contribution to their cause. They didn‘t shame me, only explained their POV. I couldn‘t quite see it then, but agreed on parts of it. I did end up eating less meat and been vegetarian for a few months now, which I never thought possible.
I’ve only had two that I met were the bottom type but then again I actively choose not to befriend those type of people.
The vegetarians and vegans that are in my life are great people, including my sister in law, we understand each other, we can talk about stuff, trade recipes, and I’ve been trying to replicate this black cherry and pine nut risotto I had at her engagement party.
I mean just don’t be a dick, it’s not that hard.
Also “leftists”: Support Ukrainian nazis to overthrow USSR regime that gave them freedom in 1991, and abandonned communism on same date. Bring back Yeltsin as CIA puppet, for glory of Ukraine, you f’n tankies.
This is VERY true, it’s always the People’s Front of Judea despising the Judean People’s Front for not being perfect enough, and this is a big reason conservatives win (besides tilting the table). They just follow the biggest and loudest. I like Michael Moore’s illustration:
Liberals: “What should we do about dinner?”
“I dunno, what do you wanna do?”
“Well, we could go out.”
“Do you want to go out?”
“Okay, if you do.”
“Okay, where should we go?”
“I dunno, where do you wanna go?”Conservative: [slams hand on table] “Get in the car, we’re goin’ to the Sizzler!”
Here’s the problem with that:
“But I don’t want to go to Sizzler.”
Too late, they’re already gone. There’s cereal in the cupboard tho.
Uh, bottom left guy: relax, those eggs aren’t even fertilized.
“Leftists” and strawmanning vegans because you’re mad that following your ideology consistently would require relatively minor life changes. Name a more iconic duo.
How the fuck are you going to build an equal and fair society when learning how to boil beans is too much sacrifice? Clowns.
If we took away strawmanning, there wouldn’t be much Internet left.
That’s a perception problem. It’s not that boiling beans is a big sacrifice - I do it all the time - I’m just not convinced that killing animals and eating them is bad. But I wouldn’t do that to a person, and I’m in favor of universal health care, basic income, and treating people equally. Not giving cows and chickens the same consideration doesn’t make someone incapable of working for a fair and equitable society. You’re doing the same “if you aren’t 100% on my side you’re the enemy” thing that you seem to be accusing the other person of.
How are you gonna build an equal and fair society when learning how to bridge the gaps to the huge sections of population that don’t share your ideology is too hard?
“I am willing to struggle against injustice, I know it will be a long road and that many will be killed brutally. Standing up for my ideals will cost me personally, and if it comes to revolution I may be tortured and executed.”
“Ok, eat your veggies”
🤬😡😡🤬😡😡🤬🤬🤬💢
Boiling beans takes so much time though. But canned beans are cheapish and healthier than that microwave dinner.
I bought a bag of tvp and I fucking hate it. it is not a good mix-in for ramen, which is pretty much the only use case I’ve come up with. but it’s such cheap protein! can you keep me make it yummy?
Ramen is awesome if you just sautee some sliced onions and/or bell peppers, carrots if you have them, green onions, whatever, then add the water and make the ramen. Toss the seasoning packet and add some soy sauce and I recommend Hoisin sauce plus any kind of hot sauce. While it’s cooking take half a dozen frozen shrimp (affordable in a big bag) and thaw them in a bowl of hot water for a minute so you can get the tails off, and dump them in when the ramen is done. They finish thawing and cool down the ramen so you can eat it immediately. It’s a feast!
I’m trying to use up this bag of tvp.
My sympathies. I hear it makes good garden mulch.
Dunno why you got downvoted. expressing a personal reaction and asking a question should be fine…
TVP is pretty good as a mince alternative for bolognese. You can also use it in hearty stews - like a mushroom and TVP stew with mashed potatos.
Caveat is that cooking with meat is a lot easier, you need to be more thoughtful with spices and stock and salt and getting the balance right when cooking without it. There are vegetarian chicken and beef stocks that are great for stews.
TVP just needs flavouring with a sauce. you can use it to make e.g. https://theeburgerdude.com/vegan-burger-patties/#recipe, https://lovingitvegan.com/vegan-ground-beef/#recipe mixed into something like this https://minimalistbaker.com/1-hour-vegan-shepherds-pie/ and so on.
I often add it to things with lentils to add more chew, like to vegan burritos and so on. Just make a stock and soak then prior, and add flavour elements. Usual directions for me are earthy spices and herbs.
I’ll look into it. thanks
vegantheoryclub has a veganrecipes community, and there’s a discord with many tasty foods (often a bit on the healthy side for my taste ;) ) linked there or in the homecooks comm.
If you’re used to the excess of a western diet it’s a little to learn, but really it’s just moving away from using fat and meat so much to spices and sauces.
How the fuck are you going to build an equal and fair society when learning how to boil beans is too much sacrifice? Clowns.
I don’t see people opposed to beans nearly so much as I see them desiring of ground beef. Go into any vanilla Mexican Restaurant worth its salt and you can find both.
I wouldn’t call “giving up meat” a minor life change so much as I’d call it giving up a simple and abundant luxury. The fact that it comes through the suffering of an animal whose fate is totally obscured to you matters about as much as the cheap plastic bobble head lining your desk bothers you for being produced in a sweatshop.
A lot of this is simply structural. Tastes developed through childhood. Supply chains built out over generations. Advertising and cultural norms baked into the adult human consciousness over a lifetime. They won’t change optionally. They’ll have to shift as a matter of necessity.
Only after you have generations of people who are adapted and accustomed to a near-to-total vegan diet (as we’ve got for the billions living throughout Southeast Asia, Africa, and Latin America) are you going to see a serious shift in human behavior. This isn’t just going to be a nation’s worth of individuals making personal lifestyle changes.
Lol wow this meme encapsulates exactly how I feel about this whole debate.
