They are just trying to align everything that’s being said to their previously held beliefs. People aren’t typically all that aware of what their core beliefs are because an alternative, challenging core belief would have to breach all the way into it for it them to realize they have one. Without the salient contrast, they just don’t notice it’s there. It’s just blue against a blue background, and unless a yellow comes along, they’re not going to realize there’s anything there. The materialistic worldview is so prevalent that a random online conversation isn’t likely to get through, no matter how well argued. I’ve had similar discussions many times and sooner or later people just kind of “reset” and I find myself having to say the same things again and again because there’s just this impenetrable thought loop going on. Logic doesn’t breach it, it’s just that they keep asking for all the different ways we can reach the number 42. If I tell them 41+1=42, they ask again and I have to try to explain how 40+2 is also 42, and so on ad nauseum. “Hahaa, but there’s a 33-4347+132562+767368, I bet you can’t do anything to get that to 42”. That can be done all day. If the person isn’t truly open for new ways to think (and few people in these type of settings are), as in they aren’t actively looking for it with an open curiosity, it’s not likely they’ll realize much during that convo.

It’s really, really, natural and normal. I just thought it was funny because OP is behaving the exact same way they’re asking about in their initial post. They’ll probably eventually figure it out.

You said that you don’t know for sure if it’s matter or consciousness that comes first but everything you’re saying hinges on you very firmly believing that matter is prior.

If you had genuine uncertainty about it, you would be much more careful about how you go about asking for proof. If you weren’t sure that matter is prior, it would occur to you to question what “objective” and “subjective” means. I could also ask you, can you step outside consciousness and objectively prove to me that your matter exists? If not, why do you value objective over subjective so much?

So to round back to your initial question: you can intellectually acknowledge the difficulty of proving matter vs. consciousness, yet if we probe it, clearly you hold a firm belief about it despite not being able to rationally prove your belief. So you can ask your initial question from yourself now. Despite your reasoning skill, why aren’t you more skeptical about the materialist view AND it’s implications?

Sure, many people do that kind of a dance or compartmentalization. But that only lasts as long as nothing severe comes to challenge it. Sudden death of a loved one is a cliche but commonly forces people to conclude something.

For me, I get that logic too is just models that predict things. Backwards or forwards. But it doesn’t answer what anything is. You can only EXPERIENCE what something is, but you can never accurately represent it. Because the moment you try to represent an experience, it’s not the experience itself, just a representation. So logical conclusion is that the only way to know something for sure, is to experience it as it is before any representation.

People with religious experiences may get to the ineffable truth but then they get enamored by their own attempts to represent it. They focus on the representation, instead of the experience, and they start to insist that their representation is the bestest and most correctest - because everything in their head aligns to it. Then it just becomes a matter of who has the most charismatic foghorns and the most appealing representation. Which has a very reasonable logic of it’s own, as far as it goes.

You’re wiggling a bit but let’s go with that and get to your original question.

Based on your responses, you probably hold a core belief that matter comes before consciousness. You’re smart enough to admit it’s not a certainty but you’ve probably lived your whole life fairly assured it’s the case. You speak English well so you have at least been exposed to western culture - which is very materialistic (religious or no, Christianity is also functionally materialistic), and so the core belief both serves you well, and is positively reinforced.

Any new information you get is subconsciously aligned to this core belief. Any decision you make is informed by it. You have a network of data in your head and it all connects to this and some other core beliefs. The same way a religious person can be highly logical but they hold a different core belief and so subtly, everything they know aligns to that belief. The more irrational the core belief, the more convoluted the links are of course but it makes sense to them - they just may not be able to represent it to you with the symbols that is language. And sometimes you’ll just get them doing the loading screen face when they try to rationalize their views - then it just becomes a question of which core VALUE is deeper for them; rationality or their religious view.

If rationality is more valuable, it necessarily demolishes the religious view. It demolishes a core belief to which they have aligned all their knowledge about the world. Which is a hell of a trip, and can be very scary. Which is also why rationality often loses.

No but the latter is what science-minded people do. They insist that matter comes before consciousness without being able to prove it, though what’s extremely obvious in everyone’s direct experience is that consciousness is needed before anything else is said about the world. It’s a false status quo.

Do you think Christianity and the western idea of God is the only religious idea in existence?

What if I were to propose to you that there’s no way to prove that matter comes before consciousness? For all you know, everything exists inside consciousness but most people believe matter is the prior condition. This is pure logic. But when it’s brought up to science minded people, they tend to get very uppity about it.

Beliefs be like that.

Also Summit. It was the first Android app i saw for it and I just went with it. No complains so far.

You might have fun reading about non-duality and the Buddhist idea of no-self…

What is a you? Did you write this post, or did your past self write this post? Is your past self the same as your current self? Your current self probably says yes but would your past self agree? Etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnRuVmO9VfQ

Girl you’re 21. You are so, so, so young. You’ll have plenty of time to fall in love for the rest of your life, get your heart broken beyond repair, rally to find your true soul mate again and so on. I get that it’s basically impossible for you to really see it that way even if you probably get it intellectually. My 21 year old self would tell this current 41 year old me to go fuck myself for not understanding anything.

Take the hit here, see what happens. Maybe he will think you’re a bit crazy or maybe he’ll be understanding. If your relationship ends, cry your eyes out, scream and wail and temporarily believe everything is lost. Whatever you’re feeling, express it with your whole body, dare to be dramatic, just don’t take it out on others. Dance like nobody is looking and cry. Then you’ll go on with your life, you’ll have learned that well actually, everything isn’t lost and you can live with this. Then you’ll find someone new and you’ll A: be a bit more confident because you’ll know you can survive a break up and B: you know more about your needs and values, and you’ll know to communicate them early on so there’s mutual clarity. But maybe he’ll think that your insecurity is cute or so. Maybe he is willing to work with it. Then I HIGHLY recommend that you both look into Non-Violent Communication. Take a course together and you’ll form a very strong bond, and you’re both better equipped to communicate with each other skillfully. This will help with your insecurity too.

Again, you’ll find out eventually which it is anyway. I get that you’re scared and no amount of “you’re so young” isn’t going to make you feel better about it. But you’re scared of something that hasn’t happened yet. Right this moment, is something so terrible that you can’t handle it? Do you have a roof over your head? Do you have people you can talk to? Do you have access to basic necessities? Right at the moment you’re reading this, are things bad? If the fear about future starts asserting itself, always ask yourself if you’re okay right this moment, or are you just getting anxious over something that hasn’t happened.

Also think of it this way: how wonderful would it be if you could just fully be as you are with someone without the need to hide anything? With dishonesty, you definitely rob yourself that possibility.

Well this is where you can ask yourself some questions. The shoulding applies to you too. You “should” not be any different from what you are but being very insecure might not be helpful in having your needs met. You can try to take steps to reduce that insecurity. Or you can continue being insecure and pursue a relationship with someone who is willing to go the extra mile to not trigger it. That may not be easy, but you also might get lucky. Are you okay with that, or does that also make you feel insecure?

Put aside the convoluted projections, strategies and what-ifs. You’re just trying to have your needs met, and he is trying to have his needs met. It’s up to you to figure out if you can do so in unison or not. But the thing is, you WILL find out eventually. You can anxiously wait for the conclusion, you can play around and have fun while you figure out the conclusion, or you can get to the conclusion as soon as possible. But the conclusion is inevitable regardless of how much time you take to get there. Trying to force him to be any different won’t change that. You pretending to be any different from what you are won’t change that. But I can say that in general, the more people stray away from what is true, the more they tend to suffer.

Communication. Communication. Communication. Don’t try to strategize. Don’t try to manipulate the situation to your desired end. And most of all, do NOT “should” him. He is under no obligation to meet your needs or figure them out for himself, and same goes for you. It’s just a question of if he is naturally inclined to meet your needs and act according to your values after you clearly communicate them to him. If he is not inclined, then it’s up to you to decide how far you’re willing to level with him or if you would be better off pursuing a relationship with someone else.

Learn to distinguish your subjective STORIES from what you are actually feeling. For example “I feel like you don’t love me” is NOT a feeling. Putting “I feel” in front of some statement does not magically make it valid. “I’m scared this relationship might not last”, also not a feeling. Any sentence starting with a “You…” is a story. More truthful: “when you don’t message me in X amount of time, I feel insecure, and I start to worry about the future of the relationship”. Now you’re just speaking candidly, honestly, saying what is actually happening. You’re not putting blame on him, just acknowledging something that hopefully everyone can agree is happening (he’s not messaging you), and saying what the impact is on you emotionally, and what kind of thoughts it triggers in you. He’s following some girls on social media? Can everyone agree that’s happening? Okay, how does that make you feel AND, distinct from those feelings, what does it make you think? Please also flip it to positive “when you give me flowers, I feel love and I think this relationship is going well.” Clear, straight-forward communication without shoulding. You can also do it on something that hasn’t even happened “I’d love to go on a vacation together some day, if we work together for that goal, I believe I’d feel secure, and I’d believe you love me” (you’re young and still learning your likes and dislikes, so please be aware that sometimes some ideas don’t turn out as great as you hoped, and that’s okay). Feel free to try to find a way to make the conversation more natural but stick to the same logic.

You may want to look into this: https://pastebin.com/ZHhS044M

And especially this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication