Religious people control their kids through the village support system of their church. Some kids are learning things at public school which are not in line with those beliefs. This is scary for parents. Parents don’t want to lose their children, and can’t imagine loving them as somebody else. Case in point Elon And his trans daughter Vivian.
I’m quite liberal and atheist, but the prospect of a transitioning child is troubling to me. While I’d have no problem supporting a gay child, I feel very strongly about body acceptance, and I reject body dysmorphia. Transitioning to another gender is to me, not too different from a woman who wants augmentation surgeries or a man who is taking steroids. That said I could care less what anybody else does. I think cosmetic surgery and steroids should be legal. I don’t think the government needs to be involved. It’s a decision to discuss with a child, doctor, and parent.
I guess what I’m saying is, I can empathize with the transphobia of conservatives. Where we differ is in how we deal with that fear. They want the government to make society conform to their beliefs. I think it’s up to the individual parent to grow the love in their heart to accept and love whatever their child decides to be.
If someone is dying from being overweight, can’t see without glasses, can’t get around without a prosthetic, etc you treat it. There is a severe quality of life problem that is beyond cosmetic.
For someone who is trans, not having surgery or hormones is like that. They can’t have relationships and sex the way they want. They can’t fit into society without standing out or being told who or what they really are. They can be in danger of anything up to being murdered.
Assuming you aren’t trans, you have built your life the way you wanted. Dated who you wanted, dressed how you wanted etc. The people you date see in you what you see in yourself.
Now imagine you woke up with a body of the opposite sex. Is your relationship with your partner the same? Or has the way you had sex and relationship dynamics completely changed? Can you wear the same clothes or take part in the same hobbies or work the same job? Without any pushback or modifications? Are you ok being referred incorrectly as mam or sir, he or she? How would you mentally feel now that your body isn’t the gender you know yourself to be?
As a straight man what would it be like to only be able to date lesbians who are attracted to feminine aspects that you don’t want in yourself? How would you feel about dildos? Or as a straight woman how your dating prospects would change only being able to date gay men who want your penis?
I understand. For each individual there’s going to be a limit to what is reasonable or even affordable to make their body work for them. Some people wear glasses while others choose contacts while others opt for lasik. Maybe it’s similar for somebody who has these feelings. Some find contentment being a feminine gay man, some are straight but want to cross dress, others want hormones, and some want more.
But understand for me that line is way more toward “au natural” than mainstream society. I don’t think women should shave body hair and I don’t like cosmetic surgery or even makeup. I think high heels and even pointed shoe aesthetics for men and women are wrong. I don’t like men who shave their face. I hate perfumes and strong scents on people. But my wife shaves her legs because she wants to and that’s fine.
I can’t really tell you how I would be because I am not. I will defend trans rights and I will defend the right to get face tattoos. But I wouldn’t want my child to get a face tattoo. But I would still love them if they did. All I’m trying to say is I understand the fear of the conservatives. And I think it’s wrong to expect the government to ease that fear by limiting options for those who want to feel comfortable being themselves.
But at the same time I don’t really want to encourage kids that they can be whatever they want, because there are some biological limits for each person and it’s worth acknowledging and accepting those limits. Some people can’t learn to sing, while for others it’s natural. Some people are clumsy while others can excel at many sports at a high level. Some people are incredibly sharp thinkers and others are better with their hands. My own personal view is that life is easier if you find your own path within your constraints. Hopefully my kid adopts my values, but maybe not. That’s okay too.
I feel very strongly about body acceptance, and I reject body dysmorphia.
Drag wants to take a crack at explaining this.
The mind is a machine. We have free will, but that free will has limits. If you try to hold your breath until you pass out, you’ll probably fail. Your subconscious will demand air and you’ll give in. The human jaw is capable of producing enough force to bite off a finger. But you can’t chew off your own finger unless you’re on drugs. Your brain won’t let you. We can do a lot of things with our brains, but some are hard, and under normal circumstances some are impossible.
Accepting your body when you’re five pounds heavier than you’d like is something our brains can do without that much trouble. Accepting your body when you’re a hundred pounds heavier than you’d like is hard. Some people never manage to summon enough willpower to do it. Accepting your body when you’re the wrong sex is, for most people, impossible. It doesn’t work. The brain has limits, and those limits kick in.
I just want to say as a trans person, first off, your views are very valid. I think it’s actually great that despite your misgivings you respect the principle of bodily autonomy, which I very much agree with myself. Totally think this is a good take.
I also wanted to give my 2 cents on the experience itself. You liken transition to body modification, and there definitely are parallels. But in my experience, the two are distinct. Like, I have both dysmorphia at times, and dysphoria at others. I’m not 100% happy with my body after transition, but now it’s like, less because I look like a guy and more because I look like a girl but, maybe not with the ideal body I wanted. When that first hit me, my wife told me “welcome to womanhood” and I laughed a little (and cried a little) because it was true, I’d never known a woman who didn’t struggle with her body image.
I also just, can’t really explain how much my mental health has improved. I had terrible anxiety when I entered puberty, and it wasn’t about gender or anything (that I was aware of at the time, anyways). It was almost just like my brain started malfunctioning. I got quieter, I overthought everything, I self medicated with weed and alcohol, became kind of aimless. Then I turned it around, got my career going, got married, worked on myself. I still drank to take the edge off and be able to socialize, but put on a face at parties and figured out how to push through the anxiety. I tried therapy, medication, meditation, you name it, but it never really got too much better, I just got better at working around it.
I had kinda given up on there being an “answer”. I just figured, you know, this is life for me. Not bad, just hard. And then this thing happened, where a lot of stuff I had been pushing down all came up at once. And I transitioned.
I really, really didn’t think it would “solve” things. Like, I thought it felt right, that it would make things better. But I was trying not to get my hopes up. And at first it didn’t, like hormones didn’t really immediately fix everything. It was more subtle. It was like… like slowly waking up from a long and tiring nightmare. The kind you don’t remember much of, you just keep that vague sense of unease for a while.
It’s been a year and a half. I can go to parties and not drink now, and just, relax. Have fun. Socialize. I can make friends and talk to strangers. I still have anxiety, I still have problems, but like, my brain just works better. I don’t know how else to describe it. I make connections I never did before, understand people and empathize with them more.
I feel happy. Not in a like, “this is new and exciting” kind of way, but a sort of deep contentedness. Peace.
I don’t think this is a silver bullet. It doesn’t solve all your problems, and it sure as hell won’t solve anything for a cis person. It just helps to take a constant burden out of the way. And for me, even if there had been 0 physical changes, I would 100% take estrogen just for the mental effects it has had alone. It’s been the best mental healthcare I have ever received.
I appreciate your story and I’m really happy for you. I think if I was child free I would just say hell yes I support everybody to be themselves. But being a parent makes me more protective and cautious and concerned and if I’m being honest I kind of hate that change in myself. It’s so easy for me to say I support autonomy but I already know that it won’t be when my child is asserting their own autonomy. I know that parents don’t have control, only influence, but it’s hard for me to walk that fine line.
Yeah, I get that. I again want to take a second to acknowledge that children are hard when it comes to this stuff. I absolutely understand that people have hesitation around considering minors transitioning, I think that’s really valid and it’ll probably be a common feeling for decades, if not longer. I want to be a parent soon myself, and even though I’m trans, I’ve thought about “what if my kid is trans?” And tbh that gives me a lot of anxiety and worry. I’d much rather not have to deal with that 😅
My path was also not 100% clear. Some trans people describe knowing since they were 4, or 8, or as soon as puberty started. I didn’t really start questioning until 19-20 or so, and I didn’t transition until 32. I would say I knew something was off for a lot longer, but it took me a while to figure out what that was. It was also a very confusing process, and I tried literally everything before accepting this. I remember being a teen and a young adult and thinking “this is it, this will fix things” so many times, only for it not to work out. It’s why I had given up.
So I really get why it’s like, scary to let someone who’s still growing and learning make decisions that will change their path permanently.
At the same time, that journey was really, really hard. There were times I wasn’t sure I would make it. I got into some really bad places, mentally and in real life. I sometimes wonder if it would have been easier, if I had figured this out sooner. And I do believe there are people who know much sooner, who just have that sense internally that they are a different gender, a much stronger internal compass than mine. That would have been torture to deal with if I had known that.
I lost a brother to suicide, and I know a lot of trans youth are at risk. So all of that and my own experience is why I really feel that this path should be navigated between the parent, the child, and their doctors. It’s just not going to be an easy process, no matter what, and I don’t think anyone can do it perfectly. I don’t blame parents who hold back on affirming strongly, but I do hope in time there’s less worry and fear about this, as we spread knowledge and our experience. Especially around social transition and just trying things out and experimenting. That’s the best way to get more real information - does the child actually like living as the opposite gender, doing things like that? If they do, it’s still scary, but you know that they aren’t just imagining the grass is greener. And if not, then cool! It really was “just a phase” lol.
Thanks for listening, it’s very much appreciated ❤️ you sound like a good parent and a kind person.
How to be supportive without being encouraging. How to stand firm without being inflexible. How to allow freedom but also supervision. There’s no manual for this stuff, and it seems like “experts” write advice for the extremes, not for the middle ground.
Religious people control their kids through the village support system of their church. Some kids are learning things at public school which are not in line with those beliefs. This is scary for parents. Parents don’t want to lose their children, and can’t imagine loving them as somebody else. Case in point Elon And his trans daughter Vivian.
I’m quite liberal and atheist, but the prospect of a transitioning child is troubling to me. While I’d have no problem supporting a gay child, I feel very strongly about body acceptance, and I reject body dysmorphia. Transitioning to another gender is to me, not too different from a woman who wants augmentation surgeries or a man who is taking steroids. That said I could care less what anybody else does. I think cosmetic surgery and steroids should be legal. I don’t think the government needs to be involved. It’s a decision to discuss with a child, doctor, and parent.
I guess what I’m saying is, I can empathize with the transphobia of conservatives. Where we differ is in how we deal with that fear. They want the government to make society conform to their beliefs. I think it’s up to the individual parent to grow the love in their heart to accept and love whatever their child decides to be.
If someone is dying from being overweight, can’t see without glasses, can’t get around without a prosthetic, etc you treat it. There is a severe quality of life problem that is beyond cosmetic.
For someone who is trans, not having surgery or hormones is like that. They can’t have relationships and sex the way they want. They can’t fit into society without standing out or being told who or what they really are. They can be in danger of anything up to being murdered.
Assuming you aren’t trans, you have built your life the way you wanted. Dated who you wanted, dressed how you wanted etc. The people you date see in you what you see in yourself.
Now imagine you woke up with a body of the opposite sex. Is your relationship with your partner the same? Or has the way you had sex and relationship dynamics completely changed? Can you wear the same clothes or take part in the same hobbies or work the same job? Without any pushback or modifications? Are you ok being referred incorrectly as mam or sir, he or she? How would you mentally feel now that your body isn’t the gender you know yourself to be?
As a straight man what would it be like to only be able to date lesbians who are attracted to feminine aspects that you don’t want in yourself? How would you feel about dildos? Or as a straight woman how your dating prospects would change only being able to date gay men who want your penis?
I understand. For each individual there’s going to be a limit to what is reasonable or even affordable to make their body work for them. Some people wear glasses while others choose contacts while others opt for lasik. Maybe it’s similar for somebody who has these feelings. Some find contentment being a feminine gay man, some are straight but want to cross dress, others want hormones, and some want more.
But understand for me that line is way more toward “au natural” than mainstream society. I don’t think women should shave body hair and I don’t like cosmetic surgery or even makeup. I think high heels and even pointed shoe aesthetics for men and women are wrong. I don’t like men who shave their face. I hate perfumes and strong scents on people. But my wife shaves her legs because she wants to and that’s fine.
I can’t really tell you how I would be because I am not. I will defend trans rights and I will defend the right to get face tattoos. But I wouldn’t want my child to get a face tattoo. But I would still love them if they did. All I’m trying to say is I understand the fear of the conservatives. And I think it’s wrong to expect the government to ease that fear by limiting options for those who want to feel comfortable being themselves.
But at the same time I don’t really want to encourage kids that they can be whatever they want, because there are some biological limits for each person and it’s worth acknowledging and accepting those limits. Some people can’t learn to sing, while for others it’s natural. Some people are clumsy while others can excel at many sports at a high level. Some people are incredibly sharp thinkers and others are better with their hands. My own personal view is that life is easier if you find your own path within your constraints. Hopefully my kid adopts my values, but maybe not. That’s okay too.
Drag wants to take a crack at explaining this.
The mind is a machine. We have free will, but that free will has limits. If you try to hold your breath until you pass out, you’ll probably fail. Your subconscious will demand air and you’ll give in. The human jaw is capable of producing enough force to bite off a finger. But you can’t chew off your own finger unless you’re on drugs. Your brain won’t let you. We can do a lot of things with our brains, but some are hard, and under normal circumstances some are impossible.
Accepting your body when you’re five pounds heavier than you’d like is something our brains can do without that much trouble. Accepting your body when you’re a hundred pounds heavier than you’d like is hard. Some people never manage to summon enough willpower to do it. Accepting your body when you’re the wrong sex is, for most people, impossible. It doesn’t work. The brain has limits, and those limits kick in.
I just want to say as a trans person, first off, your views are very valid. I think it’s actually great that despite your misgivings you respect the principle of bodily autonomy, which I very much agree with myself. Totally think this is a good take.
I also wanted to give my 2 cents on the experience itself. You liken transition to body modification, and there definitely are parallels. But in my experience, the two are distinct. Like, I have both dysmorphia at times, and dysphoria at others. I’m not 100% happy with my body after transition, but now it’s like, less because I look like a guy and more because I look like a girl but, maybe not with the ideal body I wanted. When that first hit me, my wife told me “welcome to womanhood” and I laughed a little (and cried a little) because it was true, I’d never known a woman who didn’t struggle with her body image.
I also just, can’t really explain how much my mental health has improved. I had terrible anxiety when I entered puberty, and it wasn’t about gender or anything (that I was aware of at the time, anyways). It was almost just like my brain started malfunctioning. I got quieter, I overthought everything, I self medicated with weed and alcohol, became kind of aimless. Then I turned it around, got my career going, got married, worked on myself. I still drank to take the edge off and be able to socialize, but put on a face at parties and figured out how to push through the anxiety. I tried therapy, medication, meditation, you name it, but it never really got too much better, I just got better at working around it.
I had kinda given up on there being an “answer”. I just figured, you know, this is life for me. Not bad, just hard. And then this thing happened, where a lot of stuff I had been pushing down all came up at once. And I transitioned.
I really, really didn’t think it would “solve” things. Like, I thought it felt right, that it would make things better. But I was trying not to get my hopes up. And at first it didn’t, like hormones didn’t really immediately fix everything. It was more subtle. It was like… like slowly waking up from a long and tiring nightmare. The kind you don’t remember much of, you just keep that vague sense of unease for a while.
It’s been a year and a half. I can go to parties and not drink now, and just, relax. Have fun. Socialize. I can make friends and talk to strangers. I still have anxiety, I still have problems, but like, my brain just works better. I don’t know how else to describe it. I make connections I never did before, understand people and empathize with them more.
I feel happy. Not in a like, “this is new and exciting” kind of way, but a sort of deep contentedness. Peace.
I don’t think this is a silver bullet. It doesn’t solve all your problems, and it sure as hell won’t solve anything for a cis person. It just helps to take a constant burden out of the way. And for me, even if there had been 0 physical changes, I would 100% take estrogen just for the mental effects it has had alone. It’s been the best mental healthcare I have ever received.
I appreciate your story and I’m really happy for you. I think if I was child free I would just say hell yes I support everybody to be themselves. But being a parent makes me more protective and cautious and concerned and if I’m being honest I kind of hate that change in myself. It’s so easy for me to say I support autonomy but I already know that it won’t be when my child is asserting their own autonomy. I know that parents don’t have control, only influence, but it’s hard for me to walk that fine line.
Yeah, I get that. I again want to take a second to acknowledge that children are hard when it comes to this stuff. I absolutely understand that people have hesitation around considering minors transitioning, I think that’s really valid and it’ll probably be a common feeling for decades, if not longer. I want to be a parent soon myself, and even though I’m trans, I’ve thought about “what if my kid is trans?” And tbh that gives me a lot of anxiety and worry. I’d much rather not have to deal with that 😅
My path was also not 100% clear. Some trans people describe knowing since they were 4, or 8, or as soon as puberty started. I didn’t really start questioning until 19-20 or so, and I didn’t transition until 32. I would say I knew something was off for a lot longer, but it took me a while to figure out what that was. It was also a very confusing process, and I tried literally everything before accepting this. I remember being a teen and a young adult and thinking “this is it, this will fix things” so many times, only for it not to work out. It’s why I had given up.
So I really get why it’s like, scary to let someone who’s still growing and learning make decisions that will change their path permanently.
At the same time, that journey was really, really hard. There were times I wasn’t sure I would make it. I got into some really bad places, mentally and in real life. I sometimes wonder if it would have been easier, if I had figured this out sooner. And I do believe there are people who know much sooner, who just have that sense internally that they are a different gender, a much stronger internal compass than mine. That would have been torture to deal with if I had known that.
I lost a brother to suicide, and I know a lot of trans youth are at risk. So all of that and my own experience is why I really feel that this path should be navigated between the parent, the child, and their doctors. It’s just not going to be an easy process, no matter what, and I don’t think anyone can do it perfectly. I don’t blame parents who hold back on affirming strongly, but I do hope in time there’s less worry and fear about this, as we spread knowledge and our experience. Especially around social transition and just trying things out and experimenting. That’s the best way to get more real information - does the child actually like living as the opposite gender, doing things like that? If they do, it’s still scary, but you know that they aren’t just imagining the grass is greener. And if not, then cool! It really was “just a phase” lol.
Thanks for listening, it’s very much appreciated ❤️ you sound like a good parent and a kind person.
How to be supportive without being encouraging. How to stand firm without being inflexible. How to allow freedom but also supervision. There’s no manual for this stuff, and it seems like “experts” write advice for the extremes, not for the middle ground.