I find it hilarious that the first architecture change in 10 years, that happened seven years ago, still causes anxiety and pain for people who don’t even use that operating system and probably never did.
I wonder how much Linux usership is owed to people being completely incapable of dealing with a minor inconvenience they once encountered (or only saw a meme about) on an apple product.
The sun puts out less energy than is wasted by people hating on Apple for completely and utterly irrational reasons.
An equal amount of wasted energy is output defending a trillion dollar corporation that doesn’t care about those defending them at all. Apple be fine. Let’s just use our computers and move on with our lives; it doesn’t have to be personal.
Defending the truth seems worthwhile to me. Even if for a mega corporation. There are valid criticisms to be used… but this is not one of them. We can do better!
I’m pretty sure the meme is factually correct: you can’t run 32 bit applications on current versions of macOS. Unless something has changed recently that I don’t know of. Doesn’t iOS also force updating apps? I have a vague memory of my partner not being able to use an “old” version of an app and also not being able to update it so they simply couldn’t use it. That could be on the app developer though. Both of those a relevant to “old apps”.
If the meme is referring only to arm64 then eh I guess it’s a bit of a stretch but whatever, it’s a meme.
I agree there are many more, and much more annoying, criticisms though.
Meanwhile i got an 1988 japanase source code to compile and work on windows 11 without any problem. I can even send it if you want to see. It was written by prof emeritus Haruhiko Okamura in 1988.
Yes, he is a legendary programmer, one of the most skilled and respected computer science professors in Japan. He wrote this software which is a cli compression tool in pure C
I haven’t used iOS in 10 years, but I do recall that even on older Android devices, Netflix wants you to keep closer to the current version (oddly enough, even for a 1st or 2nd gen Chromecast?). So I think not technically, although I don’t know the current status, but even so, yeah, but same as Android too. Ofc, at some point the device gets so old that Apple won’t let you update it any longer, so that’s one way to get it to stop updating:-P.
In researching this a bit more, I confirm that 64-bit Mac not running 32-bit programs is a valid criticism. However, my original point stands: what Linux system can also allow you to do similarly? Especially across a different chip set - like why expect a 64-bit Mac M-something to run a 32-bit game compiled for Windows using a x86 architecture, without needing to install something else to specifically handle that transition? Here is an example of someone doing the same with Ubuntu, needing to first install multiple libraries before it will “just work”.
Even so, there are multiple ways to make this procedure work on a Mac. Other than dual booting with an older copy of a 32-bit OS, emulators can work at near native speeds. Granted, it’s not as convenient as Wine (I would guess?), and won’t be until someone puts in the effort to make a 64-bit version of Wine (which does exist) that will natively support 32-bit programs, again compiled for a different OS (Windows) and chip architecture (x86). It only won’t work until… you know, it does.
Which it already does, using the likes of either Parallels or VMWare Fusion, which yeah requires the complexity of downloading an additional program and setting up a VM environment.
On the other hand, notice how according to this meme, there are zero problems with Linux, like EVER. In comparison, having to download an extra program, due to an event that happened all of once in the last 20 years of computing, and even that was 6 years ago now… apparently that’s “too much work”? How did this meme creator (which seems not OP according to other comments here) figure out how to join a Lemmy - wouldn’t having to pick an instance first likewise be too much to handle?! 😜
I kid, but this kind of tribal thinking (“in-group good, out-group bad”) doesn’t help anything, imho.
Hmm the type of thinking that implies Linux users only say bad things about Apple because they don’t know what they’re talking about? :)
You can 100% run 32 bit binaries on Linux systems so the answer is all of them. The need for libraries isn’t the same as the complete inability to do so, any program with dependencies of course needs them and they of course have to be compatible. Hell with binfmt_misc you can even run arm32/aarch64 binaries, but that’s not fair I guess since it’ll be transparent qemu emulation, although still pretty cool.
Also my view of this meme isn’t that it’s implying that there are no issues, just that it doesn’t force things on you or stop you from doing things which is generally true.
Where did I say “Linux users”? Or for that matter, “only”? We were discussing the OP meme, not extrapolating beyond that to stereotype all Linux users. I mean… I use Linux, so why would I stereotype myself like that as well!?:-P
Also where did “complete inability to do so” come from? You can use emulation software such as Parallels or VMWare Fusion, or you could dual-boot into a 32-bit OS. So there’s 3 ways to accomplish the task. Granted, none as easy as if the Wine FOSS had decided to implement the task by itself, but just because they choose not to does not mean that any of those other 3 approaches will not work (bc they will).
Though yeah, I could see your last point. Tim Cook’s Apple making that business decision to switch from Intel x86 to the M-series chips and then not provide a Rosetta internal emulation system definitely can earn that for-profit corporation some negative thoughts, in comparison to FOSS. Then again, it sorta makes sense to me bc it’s a very niche case, to emulate old 32-bit x86 Windows programs on a 64-bit M-series modern Mac. They decided that the cost wasn’t worth it to them, when Parallels and VMWare Fusion already can handle the situation. So following that logic, shouldn’t we similarly be making fun of Wine, for also not stepping up to fill this gap? And all the more so bc it’s not a greedy for-profit megamaniacal corporation, but supposed to be there to provide for people’s needs, free of cost? I wonder what the logic behind that was? Perhaps that Steam exists now, so the need for such is again… just like for the Apple corporatization… too niche to bother with? If both for-profit Apple and FOSS Wine are in agreement here on that point, then I don’t really see the meme as much of a humorous joke. But maybe I’m just too unfunny to get it:-D.
What does Wine have to do with anything…? Wine is an implementation of Windows ABI and APIs, it has nothing to do with Linux’s ability to run 32 bit executables on 64 bit machines. AMD64 CPUs can run x86 instructions. 32 bit executables run natively on Linux, no emulation or VM required. Old (pre arm) versions of MacBooks have hardware that can run 32 bit instructions, but the OS simply doesn’t let you run 32 bit executables anymore without jumping through hoops.
A lot of your comment here makes no sense, tbh it reads like you’ve reached the limit of your understanding. And no we shouldn’t be “making fun of” the Wine team getting paid basically nothing for making an amazing product. Wtf?
@qqq@OpenStars before wow64 introduction, wine required 32 bit process and multilib to run 32 bit code, requiring 32 bit opengl/bulkan implementations
But it is possible to run 32 bit code in 64 bit process.
Wine in wow64 mode enforces 64 bit process to use only lower 32 bits address space and thunks 64 bit libraries via wine nt syscall interface to loaded 32 bit PE binaries. No multilib or even 32 bit process support required, 32 bit instructions executed as is. Also this allows using machine code translation layers (like fexemu) exposing native calls with same syscall interface.
wow64 maybe still limitted because it does not allow calling native libraries directly and increases overhead. win32 TLS code is using same fs segment register as linux 64bit TLS and workarounds may have bigger overhead, than using multilib
It’s probably more likely that they just needed to find something bad to say about Macs, and were too lazy to find one of the actual legitimate reasons (like it being closed source or something? probably bc the one used “sounds better”, to someone who can’t recognize that it is gaslighting).
The amount of purity whinging in Linux communities generally makes me sorry whenever I respond to one of these posts. On the other hand, I am not smart so here goes once more into the fray… 🤪
Tbf, I think the idea is that closed source is not necessarily “bad” per se but rather “unstable”, like how Reddit was closed source and then enshittified, leaving no access to it. Which reveals the limitations of that style of thinking: part of what made Reddit so accessible was that it was centralized, so even if someone did spin up a new Reddit (didn’t that actually happen, now that I come to think of it? or at least an older version of its sourcecode?), it still would not work to replace the “Reddit” that we knew. There can be only one… for such a non-federated platform.
Conversely, Kbin was open source, and spawned Mbin after Kbin.social died and Ernst stopped working so much on Kbin. Then again… look at Mbin now, barely any further ahead than it was when it was still Kbin? (In contrast, PieFed is adding new features like mad!) And the OP meme seems to me more a reflection on how open-source Wine never bothered to add support for running 32-bit x86 old Windows on a 64-bit modern Mac running on an M-series chip. In contrast, there are multiple other solutions already existing: Parallels, VMWare Fusion, and dual booting with a 32-bit Mac OS to name 3 examples. Just bc Wine doesn’t do the task, doesn’t mean that other, non-FOSS software can’t and won’t.
And even on Linux, you still would need the extra step to install libraries to get 32-bit programs running on a 64-bit architecture. So downloading and installing stuff isn’t limited to just Macs, it’s Linux too, for this exact scenario.
Or, to hear the meme tell it, Linux never has any problems ever, i.e. “in-group good, but out-group bad”. Sigh…
Based on some of their arguments it feels like they’ve never actually used a Mac. “It’s for babies and old people” they cry, like there’s not an entire Unix system under the hood.
That’s like saying there is an entire Linux system under Android. Sure there is, but there is enough in the way to make the kernel not really accessible not have access to many normal Linux functions (like ifconfig).
Are Linux users really working in the kernel all that much? I’ve been doing support for Linux sysadmins for a decade and not once have I needed to touch the kernel.
I mis-phrased that, sorry. In the Android case, you can’t access a lot of networking functionality and other lower level access functions.
Running ifconfig responses with:
Warning: cannot open /proc/net/dev (Permission denied). Limited output.
Even though it is based on Linux, and has access to the ifconfig app, it’s not really something you can do. There are other things to consider like that. While you could try to give yourself root access, it’s messy and not something that’s really easy or encouraged.
In macOS’s case, it’s Unix to a point, but try installing NVIDIA cards in them (for CUDA cores). There are Unix drivers for Nvidia cards, for x86 and ARM, but even thought it’s Unix, it still won’t work.
How about running native Vulcan? It’s a major API for 3D graphics. It has a Unix driver, but still can’t work on macOS. Best that can be done is workarounds, but that’s not native and has issues.
There is Unix support for these, but macOS isn’t really Unix underneath.
Okay, that makes more sense. Though the amount of trouble I’ve heard Linux folks have with Nvidia stuff shouldn’t mean that it’s not Linux. Just that Nvidia sucks.
Also, Vulkan seems to have a ton of support for Apple Silicon.
And finally, Mac OS has been certified Unix 03 since 2009 except for version 10.7
Vulkan has hacked in support, but not official support. It’s like saying that because I can hack in Flash on macOS, that must mean that it has tons of support. Two different things.
And macOS is Unix certified, but that doesn’t make it Unix (I know, it’s complicated…) To help show this, EulerOS (from Huawei) is a Linux OS.
EulerOS is a high-security, highly scalable, high-performance, open enterprise Linux operating system
Its was also Unix 03 certified, just like macOS. Even though it’s Linux, not Unix.
You typically don’t need, and should not have access to the kernel, however, as there are custom kernels for android, it is possible. In fact, Android is far the best operating sytem ever created. Fast, highly secure, portable linux in your pocket, that is open-source, widely used, easy to use, and you can easily have full control over it, provided the hardware is allowing to unlock the bootloader
Mac is arguably more Unix than Linux is. Mind you, that doesn’t make it better, but yeah, why not allow people the freedom to choose?
Especially if your workplace is picking up the tab for the device, and all the more so if the only options are Windows vs. Mac bc that’s what the company has knowledge of due to them being used before.
Linux is great. Windows sucks ass. Mac is also great. What is so hard about saying that?
Mac is not great bc it is incredibly expensive and very restrictive, fully closed source. Most apps are paywalled too, you can barely do anything on a Mac if you are broke
Okay, but read my 3rd sentence. Though yeah, what you said is somewhat true as well - except that Mac OSX does provide a ton of stuff right out of the box, included in the price you might say, whoever pays it; also, many Linux programs require payment too, like a game on Steam, and also, many FOSS programs can work on Mac as well, especially if someone has already put in the effort to figure out how to get it to compile. So it’s not “barely anything”, even though it is lesser. Oh and also, if your work picks up the pricetag for the paid apps, then that solves that issue as well.
They both have their uses, by different people at different times - e.g. a Mac if you can get access to one, while a Linux at home if you cannot.
I find it hilarious that the first architecture change in 10 years, that happened seven years ago, still causes anxiety and pain for people who don’t even use that operating system and probably never did.
I wonder how much Linux usership is owed to people being completely incapable of dealing with a minor inconvenience they once encountered (or only saw a meme about) on an apple product.
The sun puts out less energy than is wasted by people hating on Apple for completely and utterly irrational reasons.
An equal amount of wasted energy is output defending a trillion dollar corporation that doesn’t care about those defending them at all. Apple be fine. Let’s just use our computers and move on with our lives; it doesn’t have to be personal.
Defending the truth seems worthwhile to me. Even if for a mega corporation. There are valid criticisms to be used… but this is not one of them. We can do better!
I’m pretty sure the meme is factually correct: you can’t run 32 bit applications on current versions of macOS. Unless something has changed recently that I don’t know of. Doesn’t iOS also force updating apps? I have a vague memory of my partner not being able to use an “old” version of an app and also not being able to update it so they simply couldn’t use it. That could be on the app developer though. Both of those a relevant to “old apps”.
If the meme is referring only to arm64 then eh I guess it’s a bit of a stretch but whatever, it’s a meme.
I agree there are many more, and much more annoying, criticisms though.
Meanwhile i got an 1988 japanase source code to compile and work on windows 11 without any problem. I can even send it if you want to see. It was written by prof emeritus Haruhiko Okamura in 1988.
Neat, that says a lot about the programmer too, although Windows is famous for bending over backwards for backwards compatibility.
Yes, he is a legendary programmer, one of the most skilled and respected computer science professors in Japan. He wrote this software which is a cli compression tool in pure C
I haven’t used iOS in 10 years, but I do recall that even on older Android devices, Netflix wants you to keep closer to the current version (oddly enough, even for a 1st or 2nd gen Chromecast?). So I think not technically, although I don’t know the current status, but even so, yeah, but same as Android too. Ofc, at some point the device gets so old that Apple won’t let you update it any longer, so that’s one way to get it to stop updating:-P.
In researching this a bit more, I confirm that 64-bit Mac not running 32-bit programs is a valid criticism. However, my original point stands: what Linux system can also allow you to do similarly? Especially across a different chip set - like why expect a 64-bit Mac M-something to run a 32-bit game compiled for Windows using a x86 architecture, without needing to install something else to specifically handle that transition? Here is an example of someone doing the same with Ubuntu, needing to first install multiple libraries before it will “just work”.
Even so, there are multiple ways to make this procedure work on a Mac. Other than dual booting with an older copy of a 32-bit OS, emulators can work at near native speeds. Granted, it’s not as convenient as Wine (I would guess?), and won’t be until someone puts in the effort to make a 64-bit version of Wine (which does exist) that will natively support 32-bit programs, again compiled for a different OS (Windows) and chip architecture (x86). It only won’t work until… you know, it does.
Which it already does, using the likes of either Parallels or VMWare Fusion, which yeah requires the complexity of downloading an additional program and setting up a VM environment.
On the other hand, notice how according to this meme, there are zero problems with Linux, like EVER. In comparison, having to download an extra program, due to an event that happened all of once in the last 20 years of computing, and even that was 6 years ago now… apparently that’s “too much work”? How did this meme creator (which seems not OP according to other comments here) figure out how to join a Lemmy - wouldn’t having to pick an instance first likewise be too much to handle?! 😜
I kid, but this kind of tribal thinking (“in-group good, out-group bad”) doesn’t help anything, imho.
Hmm the type of thinking that implies Linux users only say bad things about Apple because they don’t know what they’re talking about? :)
You can 100% run 32 bit binaries on Linux systems so the answer is all of them. The need for libraries isn’t the same as the complete inability to do so, any program with dependencies of course needs them and they of course have to be compatible. Hell with
binfmt_miscyou can even run arm32/aarch64 binaries, but that’s not fair I guess since it’ll be transparent qemu emulation, although still pretty cool.Also my view of this meme isn’t that it’s implying that there are no issues, just that it doesn’t force things on you or stop you from doing things which is generally true.
Where did I say “Linux users”? Or for that matter, “only”? We were discussing the OP meme, not extrapolating beyond that to stereotype all Linux users. I mean… I use Linux, so why would I stereotype myself like that as well!?:-P
Also where did “complete inability to do so” come from? You can use emulation software such as Parallels or VMWare Fusion, or you could dual-boot into a 32-bit OS. So there’s 3 ways to accomplish the task. Granted, none as easy as if the Wine FOSS had decided to implement the task by itself, but just because they choose not to does not mean that any of those other 3 approaches will not work (bc they will).
Though yeah, I could see your last point. Tim Cook’s Apple making that business decision to switch from Intel x86 to the M-series chips and then not provide a Rosetta internal emulation system definitely can earn that for-profit corporation some negative thoughts, in comparison to FOSS. Then again, it sorta makes sense to me bc it’s a very niche case, to emulate old 32-bit x86 Windows programs on a 64-bit M-series modern Mac. They decided that the cost wasn’t worth it to them, when Parallels and VMWare Fusion already can handle the situation. So following that logic, shouldn’t we similarly be making fun of Wine, for also not stepping up to fill this gap? And all the more so bc it’s not a greedy for-profit megamaniacal corporation, but supposed to be there to provide for people’s needs, free of cost? I wonder what the logic behind that was? Perhaps that Steam exists now, so the need for such is again… just like for the Apple corporatization… too niche to bother with? If both for-profit Apple and FOSS Wine are in agreement here on that point, then I don’t really see the meme as much of a humorous joke. But maybe I’m just too unfunny to get it:-D.
What does Wine have to do with anything…? Wine is an implementation of Windows ABI and APIs, it has nothing to do with Linux’s ability to run 32 bit executables on 64 bit machines. AMD64 CPUs can run x86 instructions. 32 bit executables run natively on Linux, no emulation or VM required. Old (pre arm) versions of MacBooks have hardware that can run 32 bit instructions, but the OS simply doesn’t let you run 32 bit executables anymore without jumping through hoops.
A lot of your comment here makes no sense, tbh it reads like you’ve reached the limit of your understanding. And no we shouldn’t be “making fun of” the Wine team getting paid basically nothing for making an amazing product. Wtf?
@qqq @OpenStars before wow64 introduction, wine required 32 bit process and multilib to run 32 bit code, requiring 32 bit opengl/bulkan implementations
But it is possible to run 32 bit code in 64 bit process.
Wine in wow64 mode enforces 64 bit process to use only lower 32 bits address space and thunks 64 bit libraries via wine nt syscall interface to loaded 32 bit PE binaries. No multilib or even 32 bit process support required, 32 bit instructions executed as is. Also this allows using machine code translation layers (like fexemu) exposing native calls with same syscall interface.
wow64 maybe still limitted because it does not allow calling native libraries directly and increases overhead. win32 TLS code is using same fs segment register as linux 64bit TLS and workarounds may have bigger overhead, than using multilib
It’s probably more likely that they just needed to find something bad to say about Macs, and were too lazy to find one of the actual legitimate reasons (like it being closed source or something? probably bc the one used “sounds better”, to someone who can’t recognize that it is gaslighting).
The amount of purity whinging in Linux communities generally makes me sorry whenever I respond to one of these posts. On the other hand, I am not smart so here goes once more into the fray… 🤪
I just don’t get this delusion that “closed source” = evil.
Then again, I never “got” fanatical movements or beliefs.
Said the guy defending Apple on Lemmy. Oh, boy.
Do you often hallucinate things I never said? What am I not saying now?
I’m sure in your head that was a great comeback. Good job, champ.
This is a good thing 😊
Tbf, I think the idea is that closed source is not necessarily “bad” per se but rather “unstable”, like how Reddit was closed source and then enshittified, leaving no access to it. Which reveals the limitations of that style of thinking: part of what made Reddit so accessible was that it was centralized, so even if someone did spin up a new Reddit (didn’t that actually happen, now that I come to think of it? or at least an older version of its sourcecode?), it still would not work to replace the “Reddit” that we knew. There can be only one… for such a non-federated platform.
Conversely, Kbin was open source, and spawned Mbin after Kbin.social died and Ernst stopped working so much on Kbin. Then again… look at Mbin now, barely any further ahead than it was when it was still Kbin? (In contrast, PieFed is adding new features like mad!) And the OP meme seems to me more a reflection on how open-source Wine never bothered to add support for running 32-bit x86 old Windows on a 64-bit modern Mac running on an M-series chip. In contrast, there are multiple other solutions already existing: Parallels, VMWare Fusion, and dual booting with a 32-bit Mac OS to name 3 examples. Just bc Wine doesn’t do the task, doesn’t mean that other, non-FOSS software can’t and won’t.
And even on Linux, you still would need the extra step to install libraries to get 32-bit programs running on a 64-bit architecture. So downloading and installing stuff isn’t limited to just Macs, it’s Linux too, for this exact scenario.
Or, to hear the meme tell it, Linux never has any problems ever, i.e. “in-group good, but out-group bad”. Sigh…
Removed by mod
I was agreeing with you, you dick. (There, how’s that?:-P)
I’m definitely not gonna read that long ass comment.
Based on some of their arguments it feels like they’ve never actually used a Mac. “It’s for babies and old people” they cry, like there’s not an entire Unix system under the hood.
That’s like saying there is an entire Linux system under Android. Sure there is, but there is enough in the way to
make the kernel not really accessiblenot have access to many normal Linux functions (like ifconfig).Are Linux users really working in the kernel all that much? I’ve been doing support for Linux sysadmins for a decade and not once have I needed to touch the kernel.
I mis-phrased that, sorry. In the Android case, you can’t access a lot of networking functionality and other lower level access functions.
Running ifconfig responses with:
Even though it is based on Linux, and has access to the ifconfig app, it’s not really something you can do. There are other things to consider like that. While you could try to give yourself root access, it’s messy and not something that’s really easy or encouraged.
In macOS’s case, it’s Unix to a point, but try installing NVIDIA cards in them (for CUDA cores). There are Unix drivers for Nvidia cards, for x86 and ARM, but even thought it’s Unix, it still won’t work.
How about running native Vulcan? It’s a major API for 3D graphics. It has a Unix driver, but still can’t work on macOS. Best that can be done is workarounds, but that’s not native and has issues.
There is Unix support for these, but macOS isn’t really Unix underneath.
Okay, that makes more sense. Though the amount of trouble I’ve heard Linux folks have with Nvidia stuff shouldn’t mean that it’s not Linux. Just that Nvidia sucks.
Also, Vulkan seems to have a ton of support for Apple Silicon.
And finally, Mac OS has been certified Unix 03 since 2009 except for version 10.7
Vulkan has hacked in support, but not official support. It’s like saying that because I can hack in Flash on macOS, that must mean that it has tons of support. Two different things.
And macOS is Unix certified, but that doesn’t make it Unix (I know, it’s complicated…) To help show this, EulerOS (from Huawei) is a Linux OS.
Its was also Unix 03 certified, just like macOS. Even though it’s Linux, not Unix.
You typically don’t need, and should not have access to the kernel, however, as there are custom kernels for android, it is possible. In fact, Android is far the best operating sytem ever created. Fast, highly secure, portable linux in your pocket, that is open-source, widely used, easy to use, and you can easily have full control over it, provided the hardware is allowing to unlock the bootloader
Mac is arguably more Unix than Linux is. Mind you, that doesn’t make it better, but yeah, why not allow people the freedom to choose?
Especially if your workplace is picking up the tab for the device, and all the more so if the only options are Windows vs. Mac bc that’s what the company has knowledge of due to them being used before.
Linux is great. Windows sucks ass. Mac is also great. What is so hard about saying that?
Mac is not great bc it is incredibly expensive and very restrictive, fully closed source. Most apps are paywalled too, you can barely do anything on a Mac if you are broke
Okay, but read my 3rd sentence. Though yeah, what you said is somewhat true as well - except that Mac OSX does provide a ton of stuff right out of the box, included in the price you might say, whoever pays it; also, many Linux programs require payment too, like a game on Steam, and also, many FOSS programs can work on Mac as well, especially if someone has already put in the effort to figure out how to get it to compile. So it’s not “barely anything”, even though it is lesser. Oh and also, if your work picks up the pricetag for the paid apps, then that solves that issue as well.
They both have their uses, by different people at different times - e.g. a Mac if you can get access to one, while a Linux at home if you cannot.
Mac is good for audio production, but windows, linux, even bsd does many things better