You aren’t arguing with me. You are arguing with the millions of people who found your rhetoric insufficient and a pro genocide stance unacceptable.
If you want to continue to be the party of “loser Democrats”, just keep doing and thinking acting the same way you are presenting yourself in that comment.
When you behaved this way, when this was the rhetoric you used to convince people to vote Democrat, you did real fucking damage, and are in some small way responsible for Trump.
When your “strategy” has the obvious and demonstrated result of the opposite effect to what you want, it’s not strategic.
I didn’t attack you in my comment did I? Unless you were one of the holdouts… I attacked them directly.
It’s like a child who has been poisoned. We have the antidote in our possession but we are arguing because it happens to be a cookie. and one parent is afraid the child will feel rewarded for poisoning itself and the other wants to save the fucking child and deal with everything else after that.
I mean obviously not because you still haven’t caught on. Your argument, your approach to electoralism: Its why the Democrats lost. You “won” the argument from the period of January 2024 until November 2024. There are bans here, on lemmy, still in place from those who shared your view and used their power to silence challenging that strategy or narrative. Reddit too. It was ubiquitous across media.
The wages we earned on your behalf because of your complete arrogance and stupidity was Trump. And you are being singled out because you are here, but to be sure, you weren’t alone in this hubris. All of mainstream media, almost all but the truly “left of the left” media outlets who were willing to go against the grain and make the obvious case that it wasn’t working or going to work: All of them effectively espoused your strategy.
You (and they) wanted to the election to be something other than it was. And you were wrong, and if you were here, I and others probably told you that you were wrong. Some talking heads went onto mainstream media and told them they were wrong (Mehdi Hassan, Sam Seder, a few others). But you all didn’t fucking listen and insisted you could just “beat” the electorate into doing what you wanted, like some kind of whipped dog, while the candidate drifted further and further right, towards a non-existent center.
How many votes did you gather to vote for Harris with this approach, that you and effectively all of non-rightwing, mainstream media argued for?
Well we have the receipts. You cost us 6 million votes, or roughly 8% of Biden’s 2020 vote count. Pretty much the same number as the number of Democratic voters who voted “uncommitted” as part of the protest vote during the primary, because of Gaza.
You cost us core Democratic voters because you created the permission structure for the campaign to not feel the need to get support from their core Democratic base. You didn’t come at this base with rhetoric, you came at them with abuse.
You should feel fucking horrible if this was the way you conducted yourself during the 2024 election cycle, and we’ll be blaming BlueMAGA/ Blue-no-matter-who for Trumps victory until the end of time.
I mean obviously not because you still haven’t caught on.
To what? The fact that most of my peers in the ultra left are posturing? That they are hypocrites? That they are okay with using thousands of lives as a bargaining chip? No, I’m pretty fucking aware of that at this point.
Your argument, your approach to electoralism: Its why the Democrats lost.
No, the people who were okay protesting the establishment by leaving their peers bleeding in the dirt to prove a point is why trump won. The protester holdouts who want to bitch about people like me holding them accountable and no longer being polite about it can’t fucking hold a shred of moral high ground when they refused to use their voice to prevent enormous suffering. I’m convinced that you’re a bot at this point.
You “won” the argument from the period of January 2024 until November 2024.
The only winners are the billionaires and ruling class who have successfully pushed rhetoric to polar extremes and have capitalized to install puppets and purchased politicians.
There are bans here, on lemmy, still in place from those who shared your view and used their power to silence challenging that strategy or narrative. Reddit too. It was ubiquitous across media.
Silencing dissenting view points isn’t useful, don’t lump me in with people who can and care to do that just because I’m pissed off. I’m not silencing anyone.
The wages we earned on your behalf because of your complete arrogance and stupidity was Trump.
Not on my behalf lol I actually voted why can’t you remember that???
And you are being singled out because you are here, but to be sure, you weren’t alone in this hubris.
Hubris. Wow
Imagine saying that the person in this argument who was capable of conceding to reality, dispite vehemently disagreeing with the options, and voting for Kamala…trying ensure the lesser of two evils gets into office to save other people’s lives, is the one displaying hubris…rather than the person who is defending not voting to prevent the suffering…this is actual insanity, ill say it again, I actually voted. You’re defending people who didn’t.
What a place of privilege the protest non voters are in. They sleep at night with no risk of being bombed by Israel or Russia.
You’re conflating me with some Washington DC pundit who talks down to silly little college kids who have hope. The problem is that guy happened to be right this time.
The stakes were insanely high. We had the data. We saw how bad trump was the first time with no preparation or support. and we knew that he had way more organization behind him this time.
“Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing. He is not a good man who, without a protest, allows wrong to be committed in his name, and with the means which he helps to supply, because he will not trouble himself to use his mind on the subject.”
All of mainstream media, almost all but the truly “left of the left” media outlets who were willing to go against the grain and make the obvious case that it wasn’t working or going to work: All of them effectively espoused your strategy.
Yeah because it’s crazy that people think it’s okay to gamble with someone as dangerous as Trump. Normal people with a soul understood this instinctually.
Of course the media tried to tell people that this is not the time to make a well intentioned, but morally incorrect decision to not vote.
What’s your fucking point
You (and they) wanted to the election to be something other than it was.
Obviously. aoc, Bernie, Jon stewart…hell, a rock.
And you were wrong,
I know, I can’t believe how many people actually were willing to condemn others because they were mad at the DNC.
and if you were here, I and others probably told you that you were wrong.
Oh yeah I argued till I was blue in the face with trolls and bots and hypocrites and everyone else.
Some talking heads went onto mainstream media and told them they were wrong (Mehdi Hassan, Sam Seder, a few others).
It makes sense that people more in touch with the far left like Sam would try and tell left leaning MSM that their is a grass roots coalition of protesters growing.
But you all didn’t fucking listen and insisted you could just “beat” the electorate into doing what you wanted, like some kind of whipped dog, while the candidate drifted further and further right, towards a non-existent center.
Who is you all?? Lol
It’s so clear that people on the left can’t be held to a consistent moral code after watching this unfold. It’s disheartening honestly. You’re right, no amount of appealing to their humanity and doing quikmaffs mattered because “Democrats bad, I’ll show them.”
But I stand by everything. These people have blood on their hands over something that is petty and trivial in comparison. They wanted to make a stand against policies that were hurting immigrants and Palestinians so they helped elect trump by standing aside so he could turn Gaza into a resort and deport immigrants to Guantanamo. its hypocrisy, it’s cruel, it’s unforgivable.
How many votes did you gather to vote for Harris with this approach, that you and effectively all of non-rightwing, mainstream media argued for?
Hard to say, but don’t forget that all the Islamic Arabic community leaders in places like Michigan published letters laying out how important it was to not let trump win. People were trying once it was apparent there was a rift dangerous enough to lose it all.
Well we have the receipts. You cost us 6 million votes, or roughly 8% of Biden’s 2020 vote count. Pretty much the same number as the number of Democratic voters who voted “uncommitted” as part of the protest vote during the primary, because of Gaza.
By doing what exactly? Telling people to vote who already made their intentions known by not voting in primaries by using logical arguments to explain how those actions will hurt people worse that they claim to want to save? That’s what made people not vote in the general election?? They already didn’t once and Kamala was already picked.
You cost us core Democratic voters because you created the permission structure for the campaign to not feel the need to get support from their core Democratic base.
I didn’t do that, they made the choice! youre victim blaming the non voters. That’s abuser logic.
LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME NOT DO!! YOU MADE ME STAY HOME ON ELECTION DAY BY POINTING OUT THAT LESS PEOPLE WILL COME TO HARM IF I VOTE FOR THE PERSON ENDORSED BY THE ESTABLISHMENT CENTER DEMS.
What are you even talking about…
And it’s a nonstarter anyway because the calculus is about trying to save people. This was a multiple choice test. There was only 1 right answer for that and people chose incorrectly for personal reasons.
And furthermore, your position depends on a static position across infinite time. AFTER Kamala would’ve been elected you can reapply pressure.
Protest in all the ways we can muster and guess what??? That hypothetical president is more receptive to protests and doesn’t tweet shit about throwing them all in jail for wearing black masks on college campuses…
You didn’t come at this base with rhetoric, you came at them with abuse.
COGENT LOGICAL ARGUMENTS ARE ABUSE NOW, WE ARE COOKED CHAT
You should feel fucking horrible if this was the way you conducted yourself during the 2024 election cycle, and we’ll be blaming BlueMAGA/ Blue-no-matter-who for Trumps victory until the end of time.
You’re fucking disgusting. It would be funny if people weren’t dying because of this. Your telling people who fought to minimize harm during a watershed moment for our country that they are the ones who should feel bad? Your head is so beyond fucked.
Also I’m a Bernie voter, Democratic socialist/Marxist soooooo miss me with that blue maga shit.
Would you rather “be right”, in the sense of your rhetorical and applied framing, or have Harris win the election?
You have to pick. Because you won the argument on how to approach the issue, at least for period of almost all of the period of 2024 that mattered. The world agreed with you. Your world view was precisely how almost all talking heads on addressed the issue. That voters needed to get over it. That voters needed to “vote strategically”.
But it lost us the election. You won the round to lose the match. The hubris is you blaming anyone but yourself.
You have a choice. You can continue to “be right”, in your mind, about how to approach rhetoric and electoralism, but you will not win elections.
Alternatively, you can change your mind, and reproach your strategy in terms of what it takes to win elections, both in rhetoric and approach to electoralism.
You aren’t arguing with me. You are arguing with the millions of people who found your rhetoric insufficient and a pro genocide stance unacceptable.
If you want to continue to be the party of “loser Democrats”, just keep doing and thinking acting the same way you are presenting yourself in that comment.
When you behaved this way, when this was the rhetoric you used to convince people to vote Democrat, you did real fucking damage, and are in some small way responsible for Trump.
When your “strategy” has the obvious and demonstrated result of the opposite effect to what you want, it’s not strategic.
You genuinely have brain damage.
I didn’t attack you in my comment did I? Unless you were one of the holdouts… I attacked them directly.
It’s like a child who has been poisoned. We have the antidote in our possession but we are arguing because it happens to be a cookie. and one parent is afraid the child will feel rewarded for poisoning itself and the other wants to save the fucking child and deal with everything else after that.
You have to decide between the emotional feeling of being “right” you seem committed to, and winning elections.
You don’t get to have both.
It isn’t hard to be right. The answer is obvious to anyone who can think.
I’m emotional about how stupid other people have acted over this election.
I mean obviously not because you still haven’t caught on. Your argument, your approach to electoralism: Its why the Democrats lost. You “won” the argument from the period of January 2024 until November 2024. There are bans here, on lemmy, still in place from those who shared your view and used their power to silence challenging that strategy or narrative. Reddit too. It was ubiquitous across media.
The wages we earned on your behalf because of your complete arrogance and stupidity was Trump. And you are being singled out because you are here, but to be sure, you weren’t alone in this hubris. All of mainstream media, almost all but the truly “left of the left” media outlets who were willing to go against the grain and make the obvious case that it wasn’t working or going to work: All of them effectively espoused your strategy.
You (and they) wanted to the election to be something other than it was. And you were wrong, and if you were here, I and others probably told you that you were wrong. Some talking heads went onto mainstream media and told them they were wrong (Mehdi Hassan, Sam Seder, a few others). But you all didn’t fucking listen and insisted you could just “beat” the electorate into doing what you wanted, like some kind of whipped dog, while the candidate drifted further and further right, towards a non-existent center.
How many votes did you gather to vote for Harris with this approach, that you and effectively all of non-rightwing, mainstream media argued for?
Well we have the receipts. You cost us 6 million votes, or roughly 8% of Biden’s 2020 vote count. Pretty much the same number as the number of Democratic voters who voted “uncommitted” as part of the protest vote during the primary, because of Gaza.
You cost us core Democratic voters because you created the permission structure for the campaign to not feel the need to get support from their core Democratic base. You didn’t come at this base with rhetoric, you came at them with abuse.
You should feel fucking horrible if this was the way you conducted yourself during the 2024 election cycle, and we’ll be blaming BlueMAGA/ Blue-no-matter-who for Trumps victory until the end of time.
To what? The fact that most of my peers in the ultra left are posturing? That they are hypocrites? That they are okay with using thousands of lives as a bargaining chip? No, I’m pretty fucking aware of that at this point.
No, the people who were okay protesting the establishment by leaving their peers bleeding in the dirt to prove a point is why trump won. The protester holdouts who want to bitch about people like me holding them accountable and no longer being polite about it can’t fucking hold a shred of moral high ground when they refused to use their voice to prevent enormous suffering. I’m convinced that you’re a bot at this point.
The only winners are the billionaires and ruling class who have successfully pushed rhetoric to polar extremes and have capitalized to install puppets and purchased politicians.
Silencing dissenting view points isn’t useful, don’t lump me in with people who can and care to do that just because I’m pissed off. I’m not silencing anyone.
Not on my behalf lol I actually voted why can’t you remember that???
Hubris. Wow
Imagine saying that the person in this argument who was capable of conceding to reality, dispite vehemently disagreeing with the options, and voting for Kamala…trying ensure the lesser of two evils gets into office to save other people’s lives, is the one displaying hubris…rather than the person who is defending not voting to prevent the suffering…this is actual insanity, ill say it again, I actually voted. You’re defending people who didn’t.
What a place of privilege the protest non voters are in. They sleep at night with no risk of being bombed by Israel or Russia.
You’re conflating me with some Washington DC pundit who talks down to silly little college kids who have hope. The problem is that guy happened to be right this time.
The stakes were insanely high. We had the data. We saw how bad trump was the first time with no preparation or support. and we knew that he had way more organization behind him this time.
“Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion. Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing. He is not a good man who, without a protest, allows wrong to be committed in his name, and with the means which he helps to supply, because he will not trouble himself to use his mind on the subject.”
Yeah because it’s crazy that people think it’s okay to gamble with someone as dangerous as Trump. Normal people with a soul understood this instinctually.
Of course the media tried to tell people that this is not the time to make a well intentioned, but morally incorrect decision to not vote.
What’s your fucking point
Obviously. aoc, Bernie, Jon stewart…hell, a rock.
I know, I can’t believe how many people actually were willing to condemn others because they were mad at the DNC.
Oh yeah I argued till I was blue in the face with trolls and bots and hypocrites and everyone else.
It makes sense that people more in touch with the far left like Sam would try and tell left leaning MSM that their is a grass roots coalition of protesters growing.
Who is you all?? Lol
It’s so clear that people on the left can’t be held to a consistent moral code after watching this unfold. It’s disheartening honestly. You’re right, no amount of appealing to their humanity and doing quikmaffs mattered because “Democrats bad, I’ll show them.”
But I stand by everything. These people have blood on their hands over something that is petty and trivial in comparison. They wanted to make a stand against policies that were hurting immigrants and Palestinians so they helped elect trump by standing aside so he could turn Gaza into a resort and deport immigrants to Guantanamo. its hypocrisy, it’s cruel, it’s unforgivable.
Hard to say, but don’t forget that all the Islamic Arabic community leaders in places like Michigan published letters laying out how important it was to not let trump win. People were trying once it was apparent there was a rift dangerous enough to lose it all.
By doing what exactly? Telling people to vote who already made their intentions known by not voting in primaries by using logical arguments to explain how those actions will hurt people worse that they claim to want to save? That’s what made people not vote in the general election?? They already didn’t once and Kamala was already picked.
I didn’t do that, they made the choice! youre victim blaming the non voters. That’s abuser logic.
LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME NOT DO!! YOU MADE ME STAY HOME ON ELECTION DAY BY POINTING OUT THAT LESS PEOPLE WILL COME TO HARM IF I VOTE FOR THE PERSON ENDORSED BY THE ESTABLISHMENT CENTER DEMS.
What are you even talking about…
And it’s a nonstarter anyway because the calculus is about trying to save people. This was a multiple choice test. There was only 1 right answer for that and people chose incorrectly for personal reasons.
And furthermore, your position depends on a static position across infinite time. AFTER Kamala would’ve been elected you can reapply pressure.
Protest in all the ways we can muster and guess what??? That hypothetical president is more receptive to protests and doesn’t tweet shit about throwing them all in jail for wearing black masks on college campuses…
COGENT LOGICAL ARGUMENTS ARE ABUSE NOW, WE ARE COOKED CHAT
You’re fucking disgusting. It would be funny if people weren’t dying because of this. Your telling people who fought to minimize harm during a watershed moment for our country that they are the ones who should feel bad? Your head is so beyond fucked.
Also I’m a Bernie voter, Democratic socialist/Marxist soooooo miss me with that blue maga shit.
Would you rather “be right”, in the sense of your rhetorical and applied framing, or have Harris win the election?
You have to pick. Because you won the argument on how to approach the issue, at least for period of almost all of the period of 2024 that mattered. The world agreed with you. Your world view was precisely how almost all talking heads on addressed the issue. That voters needed to get over it. That voters needed to “vote strategically”.
But it lost us the election. You won the round to lose the match. The hubris is you blaming anyone but yourself.
You have a choice. You can continue to “be right”, in your mind, about how to approach rhetoric and electoralism, but you will not win elections.
Alternatively, you can change your mind, and reproach your strategy in terms of what it takes to win elections, both in rhetoric and approach to electoralism.
You can’t have both. You have to decide.