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I’m cool with that, but folks should also remember this:
yeah I’m forever voting blue no matter who. The republican candidate will always be a fascist. It will never end with Trump. It’s going to be fascist vs not fascist blue vote and I will eat whatever shit the blue vote shits out. More cops? I’m all for it, not a fascist dictator. Support Israel? Fine with me, not a fascist dictator. It sucks but that’s just America now for the next thousand or so years, fascism or something else. Better hope the something else isn’t closer to fascism than before or else you’re fucked.
If the Dems keep winning the Republicans will have to slide left. It happened in the UK with Labour (unfortunately in the opposite direction).
When that happens, and Trump is not literally attempting to end democracy using project 2025, the plan of strong-arming the dem candidate into being more left is plenty feasible, and the risks are less dire.
You acknowledge that you’re voting for a slightly slower descent into fascism but that you’ll continue to do so?
As opposed to a faster descent? Yes absolutely.
You have a good point. Obviously we should vote for it to happen faster rather than try to use the slow descent to fix things.
It’s more than yes/no to fascism.
In a democratic political party you can influence the politics democratically. In a fascist party: Not possible.
The country does not need to hit rock bottom before it can improve. It can be changed democratically from within if you allow it to by voting for anything but the party that will take away that possibility.
You’re just an accelerationist. Fatalism, nihilism, apathy, hopeless, etc aren’t anything new, most of us disagree with you. I wonder if your outlook would improve if you got therapy or if you had a little skin in the game and stood to lose something.
Assuming you’re not voting…
Do you acknowledge that you’re voting for a coin toss between a slower descent or a faster descent into fascism? Averaging out to you being in favor of an even faster descent into fascism than the person you replied to?
So what do you suppose we do? Start a revolution against the biggest military on earth? I believe America needs to stop having a two party system, this way there is more chance someone like Bernie gets elected. But alas who will vote for them…
Consider that endorsing an awful candidate in Biden will help get Trump elected.
As long as we understand a vote for Biden is the only vote NOT for Trump, it’s all good.
as long as you still vote for biden. hold your nose if you must. i know i will be…
That’s how I was voting for Hillary, and I almost actually vomited, for all the good that did me.
if more had also done that, we wouldn’t be here now
If she had bothered to campaign in the Midwest and had just generally been a much better candidate, more people would have.
It’s the job of a politician to earn votes and faithfully represent the priorities of the majority of the voters. People like Hillary, Biden, Schumer and the rest of the Dem leadership seldom do either.
It’s also the job of the electorate to educate themselves on the consequences of their vote (and non-vote). Don’t act like nobody knew who Trump was, what he had already done, or was listening to what he was saying.
Not job, DUTY. Otherwise I get your point. I’d like to add that it is also the duty of those more educated to try to educate others in a non-hostile, factual, and rhetorically effective way in order to bolster the numbers of people who can make informed/educated decisions on these things.
Again you are completely taking Biden out of his responsibility. Why do you want to vote for a guy that rather wants to lose to Trump, than provide decent policies around basic human rights, like the right not to get genocided?
Biden and the DNC rulers are a group of psychopaths. They will not care as long as they get the money form their rich donors, who don’t care if Biden or Trump is doing their bidding.
“I don’t like Biden’s support for Israel’s genocide so I’m going to make it more likely that the guy who would support Israel’s genocide even more gets into office.”
Incredibly dumb take.
“I am telling my politicians that they dont need to listen to me, they will get my vote no matter what. Oh why do they never listen to me?”
Incredible big brain take.
Again you are completely taking Biden out of his responsibility.
Ve done nothing of the sort. If you think anything I’ve said even comes close to that, you’re hallucinating. Or lying.
Why do you want to vote for a guy that rather wants to lose to Trump, than provide decent policies around basic human rights, like the right not to get genocided?
That’s such a loaded question and so absurdly fallacious on its face, I’m not going to even dignify it by answering it, but I will say that you clearly don’t care what I want, just to push an agenda.
But, since you didn’t ask, what I want is for Trump to lose, and that math is simple: any vote not for Biden helps Trump, and no matter how much you dislike Biden, Trump will be 1000x worse. We know, because Trump has promised that.
Biden and the DNC rulers are a group of psychopaths.
Compared to Trump, they’re saints, and if you can’t see that, you’re clearly incapable of rational discourse on the matter. Or you’re clearly here to feebly undermine confidence in Biden in support of Trump.
Either way, your argument is transparent, fact-free, and little more than Fox News fodder.
By voting Biden you declare your support of his policies. That is the fundamental way of how democracies work. You vote your representative because you think he is representing you.
By attacking anyone who says you shouldn’t approve of genocide as your representation you abolish your representative from his responsibility of not supporting genocide and instead blame it on the people who think that genocide is never an acceptable representation for them.
For you individually as a citizen there is only one legal way to hold a politician responsible. And that is by denying them further support in the next election. Now if it comes to group action through demonstrations, unions, lobbying etc. that is great and even better to do. But if it is down to you and the ballot the only direct thing is to declare before what your political demands are and vote accordingly. If your demand is “genocide is okay” then you will have to make that up with your consciousness, the victims and survivors and eventually towards future generations.
It’s also the job of the electorate to educate themselves on the consequences of their vote (and non-vote).
It actually isn’t, no. Nobody is paying them to do that and, in the case of millions if not tens of people who are amongst the working poor because of the kind of economic policy the Dems have been putting out ever since she and her husband remade the party in their own image in 1992, they aren’t realistically able to with neither candidates nor mainstream media helping them sort the wheat from the chaff.
When you’re already working 60 hours a week trying (and often failing) to make ends meet on top on whatever family commitments you may have, you can’t be expected to have energy left to fact check candidates and media outlets for free. It’s simply not that voter’s responsibility to keep powerful and well-paid people honest.
Don’t act like nobody knew who Trump was, what he had already done, or was listening to what he was saying.
Then maybe Hillary and the media shouldn’t shouldn’t have done all they could to make sure he became the candidate!
That the fascist ever got anywhere near the nomination, let alone the presidency itself, is hundreds of times more the fault of the rich and powerful people paid to prevent it than the people they failed to convince to vote for an evil, however lesser it would have been.
It actually isn’t, no. Nobody is paying them to do that
That is the worst and most entitled excuse for the abandonment for any and all personal responsibility since I heard my 3-year-old niece try to convince my brother she should never have to wipe her own butt because he will always be there to do it for her.
Wow. Shame on you.
People don’t take their citizenship seriously, it seems.
Clearly, you didn’t understand what I was trying to explain any better than your niece would have.
If anyone’s abandoning personal responsibility, it’s the awful candidates who don’t do their job and then blame people who suffer for it much more than the candidates ever will.
I’m not saying that it’s a good or even neutral thing to not vote for the lesser evil when only evils are available. Of course that’s had.
I’m saying that it’s the responsibility of the candidates to not be evil and to convince enough voters of it that the greater evil doesn’t win.
I honestly regret not voting for Hillary. I didn’t vote for Trump either, I voted third-party because I thought Hillary was going to win, and even if she didn’t win, what’s the worst Trump could do, huh? So I figured it wouldn’t hurt to vote for a third-party with the hope they’d get enough points to be on the debate stage during the next general election.
Granted, my vote probably wouldn’t have made a difference. Tbh, considering I live in a state with winner-takes-all voting, I’m not even sure my vote actually matters now; but I’m still going to vote for Biden. It’s better than assuming he’ll win and risking another Trump victory.
Yes, I know I’m not the main character and I’m only one person. I know that changing my vote alone won’t make a difference. However, what might make a difference is if I talk about my reasoning in a public forum. Then, people might stop, read my post, and change their minds. Now, it’s not one vote, it’s two. They might spread their view as well, and two votes becomes four. Four votes becomes eight; and eight becomes sixteen. As small as that sounds, sixteen votes can make all the difference in an election. There are elections that have come down to one or two votes.
I did the same thing, in a solidly blue state, with the same thought processes; I voted for Jill Stein. Even after Trump won, I figured he couldn’t fuck it up too badly. I even thought he might manage to get one thing right (I’m very solidly pro-2A), but nope, he couldn’t even do that.
Biden isn’t nearly far enough left for me. But I’ll vote for him without even a hint of hesitation, because he’s so much better than the only realistic possibility. And I live in a purple state now, so it might end up mattering.
*in certain states
She won the popular vote, she lost the electoral vote. Where you live MATTERS towards your vote in this country, by design, for situations like this
It sucks but yeah. I’ll be holding my nose this election even though Biden has no chance in my state.
Nother reminder: not voting for biden isvoting for trump regardless if you support either of them
Not voting for Biden is the same thing as voting for Trump.
Voting for Biden doesn’t mean supporting him. It means preventing Trump from becoming president.
The vote I cast in 2020 was against trump and not for Biden. I feel pretty good about that decision considering what happened afterwards. I’ll vote against Trump again as many times as it takes.
You mean you threw your ballot in the trash?
They clearly said they voted Biden. Biden won.
The vote I cast in 2020 was against trump and not for Biden.
Uh, no?
They meant that they begrudgingly voted for Biden, but it was too vote against Trump.
As the other person said. I think you misread it.
You misread it. It was pretty clear, but you managed it.
I really hope you’re not able to vote in this election if you can’t even parse this dead simple thought process.
You might as well burn your ballot. It’ll at least keep you warm for a minute or two.
I never liked Biden since the Obama years and I now hate him quite a bit. Sadly voting for him at this point is simply necessary, because if I am not in a good enough state to survive then I cannot support the Palestinians nor Ukrainians.
I don’t get this attitude. Obama was literally against gay marriage. Biden’s policies have been so much more progressive than Obama’s and yet nobody I know likes him more. I’m not a “fan” of Biden but that’s because it’s weird and creepy to be a “fan” of government officials. He does a lot I don’t like but if you literally hate Biden I don’t forsee any president ever meeting your criteria.
Obama was literally against gay marriage.
That’s just one more reason I didn’t like him.
Biden’s policies have been so much more progressive
He was a slightly better politician than Clinton so I didn’t hate him, now he’s still supporting Israel thus my aversion.
it’s weird and creepy to be a “fan” of government officials.
Tell that to all the people going to all the politicians rallies.
I don’t forsee any president ever meeting your criteria.
Bernie.
I don’t forsee any president ever meeting your criteria.
Contentment does not produce change.
This precise sentiment has gotten me told off a few times now. Usually with someone yelling the word “Genocide” over and over so I can’t get a word in. People are so fucking dumb it’s actually unbelievable.
Whatever my frustration, I just want us all to work together even after we get Biden a second term. The only reason, ONLY REASON, the GOP have their power is honestly because we can’t stop slap fighting long enough to plant a foot in their asses. This would also work for the Democrats. We do have two feet. Whatever our perspectives and opinions, there is a single neigh universal truth we can all accept:
This life sure could be a lot better.
This precise sentiment has gotten me told off a few times now.
This precise sentiment is based on the assumption that disliking Biden means not voting for him anyway.
The people yelling genocide over and over have an agenda, not an opinion.
So the genocide doesn’t exist and isn’t happening?
Yeah, that’s totally what I said. (Deep /s in case it isn’t obvious)
Is the agenda to stop the genocide?
I’d say they have an opinion implanted in them by someone on social media with an agenda.
Putlers troll farms are maximally amplifying the Gaza tragedy in order to divide the west. The tragedy that his Iranian friends probably started for him.
60% of Democrats want him to stop supporting Israel. This isn’t some info op. He could solve this tomorrow.
Or… hmm yes of course Putin trolls love the Palestinian genocide as it distracts from Ukraine but maybe just maybe tax payers are existentially fed up with the US committing a genocide with their money and lying straight faced to tax payers about the impossibility of doing anything about it?
Yes to all of that. The trolls are amplifying that sentiment is what I am saying. Like pouring petrol on a fire.
Exactly. This is what I cannot understand from all these “true hyper-leftist” people. You do realize that the future of the USA is at stake here, and that our system is fundamentally rigged to not allow any real alternative as a choice, right? Your brain-dead “BIDEN BAD VOTE THIRD PARTY” is just going to enable Trump and then you’ll never be able to vote for anyone ever again as you are forced to participate in alt-right Trump rallies every single day and post on the Trumpernet about how much you love Trump. This isn’t much of an exaggeration – this where they want to go if Trump wins.
You’re not supporting Biden. This isn’t how our vote works. You’re voting for the person less likely to fundamentally fuck our country up. And in case you still don’t quite understand who this is, that is Biden.
The largest current of leftists aren’t saying you cannot vote for Biden, and that you should vote third party, but that ultimately change comes from outside the electoral system.
Unfortunately unless a revolution falls into our laps and magically solves all our problems, the modicum of control we have over the steering of this ship is limited to voting and advocating for others to vote
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Can we safely encourage Republicans to vote 3rd party?
Yes.
They’ll never accept that, because they fundamentally see nothing wrong with the system. They want to preserve the broken machine, even if it doesn’t work for them. They think changing the oil will repair it, when it was designed to break.
More like we don’t want to crash our only car when we don’t have another means of transportation, and oops, now we can’t get to work.
It’s great to say “the system is broken and must be replaced.” I agree! But nobody who says that, me included, has ever had anything resembling an actual plan to replace the system or to prevent something even worse from taking over once the system is destroyed.
Everyone gave the GOP shit for screaming about how Obamacare needs to be “repealed and replaced” but never saying what it should be replaced with (though that was because the “replace” part was a lie and they just wanted to go back to the bad old days of people being trapped in a job or entirely unable to get insurance because of a preexisting condition). It’s the same thing with people saying the entire system of government needs to be replaced.
But nobody who says that, me included, has ever had anything resembling an actual plan to replace the system
There are numerous other models of government being practiced all over the world. Choose one of them (I would recommend Swiss democracy).
It’s all well and good to say “choose another system of governance” but how do we implement this change? What is the mechanism under which we can replace our current system of government with Swiss democracy, without the old government just saying “lolno” and bombing it to shit? The only method I can think of is a constitutional convention, and right now we’re closer to the right wing being able to call one and rewrite it to take pur rights back 200 years than we are to leftists implementing Swiss democracy.
Like… I would be thrilled if that were within the realm of possibility, but as it stands any possible options for dramatically overhauling our system of governance is more likely to lurch us straight into permanent hard-right minority rule by a bunch of fascists. That’s what I mean when I say I’ve never seen an actual plan by leftists to overhaul the system–it’s all arguing about what the sexy end goal should be, without bothering to talk about the boring minutiae of how to actually get to it. So far as I can tell, the “plan” to make all these needed changes, so far as any thought is put into it at all, is just a silent assumption of either “we lobby our politicians and they do what we tell them and nobody opposes our ideas” or “we do a violent revolution and kill all the bad guys without harming the good guys and we definitely win and accomplish our goal without someone else taking advantage of the chaos to do a fascism instead,” depending on how radical the change is.
how do we implement this change?
Constitutional amendments
without the old government just saying “lolno” and bombing it to shit?
Make sure the old government doesn’t have enough votes.
options for dramatically overhauling our system of governance is more likely to lurch us straight into permanent hard-right minority rule by a bunch of fascists.
Agreed, but it doesn’t have to be like that.
They think changing the oil will repair it, when it was designed to break.
That’s what I said.
Not the point. Trump needs to be defeated, and the way we’re going to do that is voting for Biden. There’s no other way. It’s not going to happen. You are absolutely deluded if you think there is another way.
After we fend off the Trump bullshit, then, yes, we have to make actual change to push us much further left. I don’t get how all the ultra-leftists cannot fathom this simple fact.
After we fend off the Trump bullshit, then, yes, we have to make actual change to push us much further left.
That was the lie in 2020 and it didn’t fucking happen. Now Biden is supporting genocide and we still gotta vote for him.
Because Trump is still a fucking threat, you assclown. His cronies are still in office. We are going to have to keep fighting this fight where it needs to be fought, then when that fight is done, THEN we push to the actual left. Is this so goddamn fucking hard for you “LOL DONT VOTE BIDEN SO TRUMP CAN BE PRESIDENT AGAIN” fucktwaddlers to understand?
I’m not American dawg. I hate biden as much as I want. Let me hate.
Nah, everyone is free to hate. However, support from others on this planet against Trump is also important. To some degree we all affect one another and his rise into the seat again would directly impact a LOT of people, even outside the U.S.
BUT
I’m hoping that there is now enough anger and frustration for us to carry the momentum past the voting gates and straight into very strong pressure towards all politicians. This IS fixable. The message is there, even if it will result in violence from our militarized police force.
This is ignorant fear mongering. If thats the way the system works as you say? Then its our duty as citizens to destroy the system entirely. If thats America then this is not a democracy and its certainly not a democracy worthy of being preserved. IF that is the system you claim Joe biden stands to preserve? Then we SHOULD let trump come in and tear the whole thing down.
I think trump is a fundamentally morally detestable character. Butt iv lived thru 1 trump presidency. Hes backwards, hes an ass. Hes not a good leader. But hes not the end of everything as we know it. And I’m not giving more power to a corrupt party of beaurocrats who continue to lie to my fucking face while selling me out to corporate interests behind my back and completely hollowing out our countries economic capability all the while refusing to make good on any of their promises and funneling all my tax money to foreign wars while we bleed for healthcare. Fuck this countries “democracy” the fact you even believe we live in a democracy is hilarious. Congress has a 14% approval rating. Our representatives do not represent the will of the america people. They represent the will of their largest financial donors.
If you think that’s fear mongering then you clearly haven’t been paying attention for the past 8 years.
I get what you’re saying, but I’m trying to parse what is actual “things that can / will happen under a Trump presidency” vs “what the democrats and liberal media want us to think can / will happen under a Trump presidency”. I’m likely voting Biden simply because I saw what a shitshow the Supreme Court became (and will be for quite some time) under a Trump presidency. But I also notice Biden did fuck all about it so part of me wonders if the democrats are doing nothing for the simple fact that they have a fearmongering device setting the up for the next election. I mean, honestly the state of politics in the US is just pathetic.
I feel the frustration, and agree with it. But the choice you’re describing does not exist. The options aren’t “fucked up status quo” with Biden and “start over fresh” with Trump, though. The options are “fucked up status quo” with Biden and “way fucking worse corporatism, inequality, treatment of any marginalized/minority group, personal freedoms, bodily autonomy, religious liberty, foreign relations, healthcare, education, environment… oh and let’s just completely give up the little voice we have” with Trump.
All the stuff that pisses you off about the corrupt bureaucrats in the Democratic Party exists across the board in the Republican Party, but worse.
I could see somebody voting for Trump hoping that the world ends more quickly and rebuilds so that their great-grandkids, if they exist/survive, might live in a better system. But the price for placing that unlocke unlikely bet is to fuck up the system now and in the near future, negatively affecting tens of millions to billions of actual people.
Ignorant? Look up Project 2025. Then tell me I’m exaggerating. You are either laughably ignorant about our situation, or you’re a Trumper trying to convince people that everything will be fine when it will absolutely not be.
Vote blue in 2024, then push better agendas and vote true left next time. Because I can guarantee you if Trump wins, you won’t be voting any more.
By that logic, not voting for Trump is the same as voting for Biden.
Your point? If you have conservative values, then not supporting Trump does indeed help Biden to win.
Nope, because, and this will shock you, they are not the same
The meme does not mention voting. Why do centrists always make the leap from “dislike Biden” to “not vote” or “vote third party”?
Did you just call me a centrist? That’s hurtful.
Not voting doesn’t mean you support Trump.
Oh look aren’t declarative statements fun! Let’s do the color of the sky next!
Not voting doesn’t mean you support Trump.
You’re saying that if you did vote, it would be for Trump? Because that’s the only case in which not voting wouldn’t help Trump.
If not voting helps Trump then it helps Biden too. Trying to paint people who don’t like Biden as Trump supporters is a propaganda meme that’s trying to gaslight us all.
Voting for Biden means supporting Biden.
Biden is poised to heavily lose already in almost all polls. The faster people realize this and pick a different candidate the better.
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You have chosen…brain worm.
Right? “the only sane choice”? The antivaxxer? The “covid is a bioweapon” guy? The “I don’t think we need a ceasefire in Gaza” guy. That guy? What a fucking joke.
Might as well throw your vote in the trash. Your little protest won’t be heard by anyone who matters.
Psst…just let him, voting for Brainworm Jr. means most likely a vote less for Trump.
Until he picks RFK as his running mate.
I want to up vote you for the chuckle you gave me, but I did that once with Trump and too many people took it seriously, and he ended up being the president.
Do you understand that words have meaning? You are using words but at making zero sense.
it seems quite straightforward really. What are you having issues making sense?
Just stop being obtuse. You know that not voting for Biden is not the same as voting for Trump.
This particular vote is an “A\B” question. No matter what you do A or B will be chosen. All other “choices” will be ignored and will have 0 effect on the outcome. The only thing that matters in this vote is who wins.
Not voting at all, or even voting for C, both have the exact same results as voting for whoever wins.So if you choose not to vote, and Trump wins, then you created the same results as if you had voted for Trump.
If you wanted to vote against Biden but did not want to vote for Trump then you should have voted in the primaries to defeat Trump before he was the only alternative to Biden. In fact, of you had blocked Trump from being nominated again, Israel would not be doing what they are doing. Israel actively wants Trump in power, so that is why they are doing this now.
Yeah this isn’t even like a complicated idea; I don’t get why people have trouble with it.
As a practical real world example: in the 2000 election, Bush won Florida by 537 votes. (the exact number is questionable because of the recount and the bullshit that was Bush v. Gore. Which we can and should be very angry about but also doesn’t change the conclusion here).
97,488 Floridians voted for Ralph Nader.
Now, I’m gonna assume that people who voted green care about like. The environment. And I’m quite sure that Nader was more progressive on environmental issues than Gore was – Gore would probably have been a boring and relatively centrist democrat. But by voting for Nader over Gore we didn’t get Nader, we got Bush.
If even 1% of the green voters in Florida had held their noses and voted for the candidate who they maybe didn’t align quite as well with but had an actual shot at winning, we could have had a president who actually recognized climate change as a threat almost a fucking decade before we did,instead of a climate change denier. Would it have fixed everything? No! But we’d be a hell of a lot better off than we are now.
Oh, so you understood, you were just being obtuse. And now wrong.
Sure, but if you can and don’t vote for Biden it means you’re at least ok with Trump.
I’m not going to tell anybody what to do or who to vote for but one of two things are very likely to happen at the end of this election:
- Biden is re-elected. We continue with the status quo. We have a chance to make small incremental steps toward a better future.
- Trump is elected. Two Supreme Court justices retire and Trump appoints two more. At that point he will have appointed FIVE of NINE Supreme Court justices. We have already seen what they’re willing to do. Imagine what they will do in the literal decades to come.
Choose what you want to do, but take responsibility for your choice. Vote in your local elections. Big changes can happen from the ground up.
It’s the federal judge appointments that matter and almost nothing else. Most of what he does can be undone except for that… It would cause a generation of damage.
"But take responsibility for your choices"strikes me as hilarious. Voting is not public. In a democracy with private polling,hardly anybody takes responsibility for their choices. Actually, zero percent. That is why the elected president is never popular for like the first year in office. Wouldn’t it be lovely if people assumed their responsibility for making choices, though? I would be on speaking terms with so many people from my past if they actually learned from their own stupidity.
You won’t get big changes voting for Biden or Trump. Just more of the same.
I’d say the changes from voting for Trump are pretty big.
Pretty big changes have resulted from the previous Trump presidency. Any reason why you think this one will be ineffectual?
Sorry, you will get big changes voting for Trump. becasue too much is already in place to make those types of changes happen. I dont agree with these changes, but to say they are the “same” is a dangerous opinion.
The person at the top is needed to green light policy… those lower down present such policy… While this can seem boring it is important, since while by definition the president will be at the center of their party. If the party you vote for is most interested in vetoing everything of the other party… even if they agree with the law in general, there is no progress.
Of course you must do more than just vote for the least bad president to make the change happen… However if you can’t at least do that you own the results os the OP said.
Are you familiar with Project 2025?
Roe v Wade being overturned was not “more of the same”
The system protects itself. There is no path for a third party straight to the top. Split the vote sufficiently and the House decides.
Criticizing our leaders is one of the core principals of democracy.
Voting is also a core principal. So please stop encouraging non-participation.
I voted for Gary Johnson because Hillary sounded awful in 2016 and I 1000x regret it. Fuck this system for making me choose between bad and worse, but yes obviously I have to choose bad over worse.
Fuck this system for making me choose between bad and worse
Don’t make me defend the US voting system but that is not how it works. Primaries exist and that’s where voters make the case for a specific person. The large, general, national elections are for forming coalitions and compromising. This is what we do to decide who gets power instead of physically fighting. There will never, ever be a time when a single candidate is the ideal choice for a majority of Americans. Compromise is a core tenant of democracy and by definition it means nobody gets everything they want.
And while we’re on the topic, 99% of leftists understand this. Anyone telling you “voting doesn’t matter” or that “both candidates are the same” is just trying to reverse the progress that’s already been made.
Most of what you said is spot on but you originally quoted about choosing between bad and worse.
I get what you’re saying about the primary system, but even that is broken. Incumbents are almost never primaried. Typically the party will not allow it. There also needs to be consideration of what primarying an incumbent could mean. It’s unlikely any of the challengers would win and in the process they would burn through campaign money and highlight weaknesses in the winner’s record and character that could be used by the opposing party.
We do have a primary, but it may not always give the best candidate. If argue only a portion of people who vote in a general even vote in the primary.
Primaries exist
Unless your state votes for a progressive in the previous presidential primary, like New Hampshire did.
so you said hmmm these two candidates are terrible who can i find that is even worse?
Kenneth Copeland
yes obviously I have to choose bad over worse.
we’ll all be doing this for the rest of our lives thanks to this system and it still leads us to the same place that the worse option does, but at a slower pace.
It doesn’t lead us to the same place but slower, at least not everywhere. One party has rolled back abortion protections, equal rights protections, bans books, and a host of other regressive policies. Democrats didn’t do that. Democrats might keep status quo, but the Republican agenda is literally to move us backwards to a worse place (though if they wanna move us back to when the highest marginal tax rate was 90% I could be onboard with that part at least).
Once Republicans move us backwards, where we wind up is the new status quo that Democrats keep.
That’s not true at all. Biden specifically has protected more public spaces and land, while Trump specifically attempted to lease / sell / make available more of it to corporate interests. Net neutrality is being restored after it was rolled back under Ajit Pai. We can be frustrated democrats don’t do enough, or aren’t further left, but to say they keep the status quo at the regressive place republicans want to take us is demonstrably wrong. So while maybe they won’t expand affordable care beyond where it currently is, they’ll at least keep it where it is and restore it if possible. If they won’t add new parks, they at least protect the ones we have and cancel corporate interest on existing ones. If they won’t raise the taxes heavily on the rich (which is where I think they’re most guilty of “status quo”), they at least won’t give them trillions in tax breaks like Trump did.
That’s not true at all. Biden specifically has protected more public spaces and land, while Trump specifically attempted to lease / sell / make available more of it to corporate interests.
Net neutrality is being restored after it was rolled back under Ajit Pai.
I’ll consider it an accomplishment when you can speak of it in the past tense.
We can be frustrated democrats don’t do enough, or aren’t further left, but to say they keep the status quo at the regressive place republicans want to take us is demonstrably wrong.
I live near the Texas/Mexico border. Democrats just recently adopted what is essentially Republican policy regarding border security. Republicans did the predictable thing and moved to the right, and now Republicans’ previous position is Democrats’ reasonable moderate stance.
When Trump said that he wasn’t going to support a nationwide abortion ban and instead let the states decide, Democrats said he was just pretending to be moderate on the issue. And suddenly the patchwork of abortion bans is the moderate position.
I can post articles as well.
https://apnews.com/article/biden-public-lands-conservation-leases-40b5f47203bbe92a1186a1a4e9e0ea5d
Note that repeals of policies means someone had to have passed it originally. Guess who passed net neutrality originally? Guess who passed the clean water rule? Guess who passed affordable care act? Oh, it seems democrats actually do move us left.
I also live in Texas, a state controlled by Republican interests for the past 20 years. Let’s look instead at locations where a state flipped blue. Just by one example, Michigan then passed a statewide constitutional amendment protecting abortion. You may be upset that we have to get statewide protections passed, but we only have to do that because Republican judges went against some 50 odd years of precedent to force it. So democrats are actually enshrining the very thing that Republicans took away.
Look, you can troll all day and pretend that Democrats are just as bad as republicans, but that’s absolutely wrong on so many issues, and frankly I’m going to exercise my right to vote for the party that will protect the things I want protected and move us further left.
Like logically, you should vote for the furthest left candidate that can actually win the election at every level. Anything less than that and you’re contributing to moving the country to the right. Reap what you sow and what not…
I love how the immediate assumption in response to criticism is that the critic must be voting third party, not voting, or voting for Trump.
And the Democrats are just watching that happen. Doing nothing to stop it. Now the Democrats are cheering the police on while they brutalize Pro Palestine protestors. The second they think they can jettison minority support they will. They’ve shown they’re willing to support morally reprehensible actions. It’s just circumstances that place them closer to minorities for now.
What would you like the Democrats to do?
They are not in control of the House (which is in control of the purse strings) and “have” a razor thin “majority” in Senate (minus DINOs and plus veep).
And they don’t have SCOTUS. And Trump had a record number of lower court appointments (because McConnel slowed a huge chunk down in Obama’s final year, not just Garland).
So, are you suggesting that Biden act unilaterally? Because that is fascism. That’s what we’re trying to avoid here.
The funny thing is, Republicans would. They have no respect for the law and order that they claim to hold near and dear.
And that’s what the election is, really. Fascism, or status quo.
Biden isn’t the only hope. He’s just a part of the only hope. Dems must not only hold the executive but also gain seats in both house and Senate.
Because here’s the other thing (that nobody is talking about), and that’s the Biden v Trump is only a very small part. One third of Senate, and all of the house, are up for vote this year. It’s quite possible for either party to end up with a significant majority in either or both houses.
I would much, much prefer the current democratic party to be in control of two branches, than the current Republican party being in charge of two. All three? Fuck.
Ahhh the paradox of liberalism. We can’t do anything for fear they’ll do something in return!
I want them to grow some balls. I want them to withhold funding for federal programs being misused. I want them to arrest police officers and school officials on civil rights charges that are already on the books. I don’t care if SCOTUS walks in and undoes it all. Every time they do that they add more weight to the reform SCOTUS position. I want them to look at bad police departments and tell them they can’t get free military equipment. I want to see the modern equivalent of the 101st escorting a black student to school.
This idea that we can’t engage until we have everything lined up perfectly is just an excuse to do nothing and watch trans kids get killed. But it’s okay, we voted for the blue guy!
There is action happening, and there is hope
And there are some pretty cool things happening under the surface
I see it as damage control while these grassroots attempts at major system changes take hold. We’re holding off the assault while we wait for the calvary to come, but they are coming. We just have to not blow their chance.
Yeah but I’m mad Max and even though I make no effort to better anything now, if everything falls apart I’m going to all of a sudden have motivation and rise to the top, because this is my story and I’m the main character!
Or what you can do is what you’re supposed to do: work from the ground up. Presidential vote is not the place to drastically change things. As long as we have fptp, the vote for president is always going to have to be a strategic “vote for the candidate that sucks less.”
Face the facts, if everything falls apart you’re not going to end up on top of you’re on the bottom now. It’s just going to be even more shitty for you, and you’ll then end up in another shitty system.
The idea is to implement the change locally and work up. That takes time and effort tho. If you want the system to work better, vote strategically federally and then work locally to get the people you want elected.
Hillary won the popular vote in 2016 by a nearly 3 million vote margin, I don’t think you need to feel any regret over your one vote going to someone else you actually wanted to vote for.
Also, even if she’d lost the popular vote too, it ain’t the voters fault that the DNC keeps deliberately sabotaging the good candidates in their primaries to give us turds.
I appreciate the sentiment but I think my regret is more tied to the fact that I very much fell for the white supremacist men’s rights activism and homophobic rhetoric of the time, and me voting for Gary Johnson over Hillary feels like a symptom of that fact as well, and I deeply regret falling for that bullshit.
Like it or not, Clinton destroyed sanders. The DNC definitely showed a bias for her, but by no stretch of the imagination was he sabotaged. This narrative is the same BS that trump supporters spew that the media was unfair to trump which is part of the reason he lost.
The reality is that sanders just doesn’t (unfortunately) represent the average Democrat. People like Clinton and Biden do.
That’s kind of a circular logic though; the DNC alienates voters who don’t like their blessed candidates. If they didn’t do that, and more leftist candidates like Sanders were welcomed, then the “average Democrat” might look a bit different.
You know there are other offices than president right?
You want a further left president, you’re going to need to show that a lot of people want a further left president, by having a lot of further left politicians in state and local offices.
You don’t just jump right to the Whitehouse. The presidents politics are a reflection of the politics of the whole party, not the other way around. IDK if you watched the GOP primary debates in 2016, but it was very much an “everybody sucks here” kind of event. Each candidate might have been a little more reasonable on one of two smaller issues, but all in all they were much the same. The only thing different Trump had was charisma and campaign stamina.
No reason you can’t vote for more progressive candidates for presidential primaries, but there’s no sense in holding such a grudge when the party outlier loses. It’s kinda obvious from the get-go that that’s going to happen. And that’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with voting for a loser, and a popular loser can easily land a cabinet position where they could still have a very significant voice.
You know there are other offices than president right?
You want a further left president, you’re going to need to show that a lot of people want a further left president, by having a lot of further left politicians in state and local offices.
I’ve seen the Democratic Party put its thumb on the scale for centrists at the congressional level: Henry Cuellar. I’ve seen them pull the rug out from under progressives who manage to win the primary, also at the congressional level: Michelle Vallejo.
Progressives cannot do as you describe when the party shuts them out at the lower levels as well.
There’s actual evidence of sabotage tho, such as Hillary getting early access to debate questions, Shadow company (not even kidding they actually fucking named themselves that, look it up) being run by DNC members being in charge of tabulating voting in some states, and more.
They were even taken to court for it and admitted to some wrong doing, but nothing could be done since apparently the DNC is a private entity and no laws are broken. Legally they can screw over any candidate they want.
Most are referring to the way our current electoral system works. Voting 3rd party helps the Republicans even if its not intentional.
Yup, and the only way out of that is Ranked Choice Voting.
Go volunteer for your local RCV group, California’s is here: https://www.calrcv.org/
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Nobody thinks its a magic bullet, we’re all looking for the next rung that leads us closer to a happy democracy. None of us are looking for instant easy solutions, we’re trying to iterate and be better.
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In other words, It’s necessary but not sufficient for reforming the two party system.
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Obligatory: “Ranked Choice” is a specific use of ranked ballots. It’s subpar. It beats what we’re doing now, but anything beats what we’re doing now.
What you want is a Condorcet method like Ranked Pairs, where the winner is whoever beats everyone else. RCV just picks whoever can scrounge together 50% first. RCV would not elect a candidate who is literally everyone’s second choice. Ranked Pairs would.
The simple alternative is Approval Voting, where you let people check all the names they like. It matches Condorcet results… somehow. There is no good reason we’re not using it everywhere.
But ranked choice is easy to implement and in practice if everyone would put a candidate second they aren’t likely to be knocked out in the first round. There are very limited practical examples where it doesn’t provide the optimal outcome.
It also seems to have some level of support and momentum in the US and it seems to me like it’d be better not to get caught in the weeds fighting over which new voting system should be implemented there.
Approval is trivial.
Ranked Pairs has the same ballots as Ranked Choice and it works the way people think ranked ballots work.
RCV has momentum primarily because people keep using the name to mean “ranked ballots.”
Approval Voting seems to just dilute your vote the more candidates you vote for. Candidates will tell people people to only place one vote. What a silly system.
Your worst-case scenario is how things currently work.
Realistically, people will just ignore that shite advice, and vote for as many people as they feel like. It works out on average.
This is absurd. Take a look at the polls. There is only one 3rd-party candidate with double digit percentages. Do you really think JFK is taking more votes from Biden than Trump?
Taking the risk because you think you know something you can’t know is what’s absurd
I never made any indication on how I’m voting. I’m just tired of this baseless claim that voting 3rd party only helps Trump. Polls excluding 3rd-parties show Trump significantly further ahead than those with 3rd-parties. Therefore, Biden’s only chance of winning is due to JFK capturing conservative votes.
TIL “how America works” = “baseless claim”
What is “how America works” in this context? You seem to be trying to make the point that 3rd-party voting only hurts Biden. I’m pointing to recent polling that shows that, when 3rd-party options are included, Biden’s margins get closer to victory. You should be thanking 3rd-parties if you are hoping for a Biden victory.
So polling, that thing that told us trump couldn’t have won in 2016, makes another prediction, eh?
Yet Robert Reich has said the same thing.
Maybe. A lot of folks only know him for his good environmental stance and see him as the rightful Democrat candidate.
They don’t see his antivax bullshit and leaky brain from WiFi.
A different way to think about it - most of the intended audience on Lemmy, and especially in this community, would’ve voted democrat instead of republican. So from the frame of reference of this post, most folks here claiming to vote third party did in fact have their vote “taken” from Biden.
Unfortunately, the US political system does not have a feature to “dislike” all the candidates. Not without a major, probably bloody, revolution, anyway. Your choice is to support and pick one candidate, or let everyone else pick the candidate for you.
Liberal democracy has to win every election, fascism only has to win one. Good job if you win in 2024, now do it again every 4 years
Ok but what no leftie has yet explained is who has asked them to like Biden? Probably nobody who votes for Biden last time or this time around thinks he’s “teh awesome”, we’re simply grown ups who are able to tell which is the least bad option. Honestly lefties (if they aren’t just groipers posing as lefties) who think it’s a hot take to say Biden isn’t the optimal person to be President are all suffering from Captain Obvious syndrome while thinking they’re the cleverest people ever. It’s cringe.
Ok but what no leftie has yet explained is who has asked them to like Biden?
Criticism of Biden on this platform is reliably interpreted as support for Trump.
That’s how it is in a highly polarised country where every vote is needed to avoid the end of democracy and possibly domestic genocide on POC and immigrants.
Is there ever going to be a time when it is acceptable to criticize Biden? Because I very much expect that there will always be some criterion that must first be met before criticism is permissable.
You’re like the right wing chuds who loudly say “you’re not allowed to say things anymore” while saying those things. Actually you’re no different at all from them, it’s true that if you go far left enough you’ll end up on the far right.
Yes, everyone to your left is all the way to your right.
No just you
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Critiques are necessary. We don’t owe electors loyalty. They owe us representation.
With that being said, when it comes to voting, inaction is action.
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I’m sorry if my comment implied disagreement. It was meant to support and reinforce your point, not counter it.
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No worries. I wrote with conviction. I see how that can come across as argumentative.
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You owe it to the country to not hand our government over to fascism. Voting for the immediate alternative isn’t a blood pact.
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Fuck your analogy.
One of two people is going to be in charge of the country seven months from now. You can have the boring liberal with an awful allegiance to a questionable ally run by a power-hungry bastard… or you can have our very own power-hungry bastard, who is also going to give the aforementioned bastard everything he wants.
Don’t choose more evil.
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It’s an idiot trying to make a terrible point.
Yeah, but… Oftentimes criticizing Biden helps trump. I’d rather not even risk it at this point.
Can we spend more energy celebrating that trump is NOT the president and how bad it would be if he comes back?
